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18:49 < dabura667> I wonder if BIP47 could be salvaged into something more acceptable... luke-jr and gmaxwell both commented on the Github wiki for it denouncing it... but I wonder what specific design choices should be modified.
18:51 < dabura667> I mean, in the near future, Lightning will mostly make this a moot point... but I can see some use cases for the "on-chain version of lightning" (in the sense that you kind of "open a channel" by creating a shared secret based xpub for each other.) moving forward...
18:52 < dabura667> I would love to hear specific criticisms of BIP47, and maybe I'll write up a pull request to add some suggestions for a Version 3 etc. that would address them.
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19:22 < gmaxwell> dabura667: the design is a failure if any transaction looks different from any ordinary transaction. There is no need to include extra data or have op_returns.  Expecting the recipent to support any of a multitude of payer selected scripts is outright incompatible with sensible wallet designs-- I think that if you strictly followed the BIP you'd have to credit to the wallet 1 of 2 multisigs
19:22 < gmaxwell> involving the negoiated points, lol and get robbed.
19:24 < gmaxwell> there are also a bunch of less relevant flaws in the spec, like it directs you to use 'bitmessage', which is largely defuct now (because it was backdoor ware)
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19:25 < gmaxwell> so far no one has found a good way to avoid the problem that the 'obvious' way wallets will implement this is by sending their scanning keys to a third party server.
19:27 < gmaxwell> No one also has come up with a way of avoiding the problem that this fails to address what is probably the most common harm in address reuse: that coinbase, etc. detects people sending to disfaored addresses and freezes accounts, reusable payment codes and stealth addresses both make that problem worse. (though perhaps RPC less than stealth addresses)
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19:50 < dabura667> gmaxwell: Good points.
19:52 < dabura667> I was trying to think of a way to do the notification tx without OP_RETURN... maybe using the pubkey from the 1st input's scriptSig/witness as the pubkey and the hash of the outpoint as the chain code... or something along those lines.
19:53 < dabura667> But the more I think about it, the more difficult it gets to think about.
19:53 < dabura667> Especially when you think of implementation in SPV wallets etc.
19:54 < dabura667> ... *sigh* imo the holy grail of address reuse destruction is an upgraded improved BIP47 replacement.
19:54 < sipa> dabura667: you need an out of band communication channel to the receiver
19:55 < sipa> if you can't put it in the tx itself
19:55 < dabura667> I have experienced first hand how amazingly strong users are at resisting forced address rotation...
19:55 < sipa> as you said, lightning may actually solve this (for lightning payments)
19:55 < dabura667> We initially had our service refuse to detect more than one utxo per address.
19:55 < sipa> i think that excites me more than the fact that it's also cheaper :)
19:56 < dabura667> "forcing" users to contact support... we figured they would get tired of having to contact support...
19:56 < dabura667> hahahahaha we were wrong.
19:56 < dabura667> so now 98% of our users grab their first address, and only deposit to that one address forever.
19:58 < dabura667> Well, one of the drawbacks of LN and also OOB communication is that the user is required to backup so much more info than just a seed.
19:59 < dabura667> LN => channel info
19:59 < dabura667> OOB => all received payment codes from the OOB comms
19:59 < sipa> yup
19:59 < dabura667> perhaps integrating with Dropbox etc. and encrypting the info before syncing it with a private key derived from your seed.
20:00 < sipa> but forcing the whole world to backup it instead of just you is pretty ridiculous
20:00 < dabura667> seed + Dropbox!!!! woohoo
20:00 < dabura667> true
20:01 < dabura667> Perhaps when this storage solution is solved in LN, that will be a good guide for payment codes.
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