--- Log opened Fri Sep 21 00:00:15 2018
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01:42 < stefanwouldgo> has anyone read the ouroboros genesis paper: https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/378 ? it seems to invalidate the old "POS is impossible" conjecture.
01:44  * gmaxwell rolls eyes.
01:45 < gmaxwell> the paper makes a strong assumption of a synchronous network, which is a physical impossiblity.
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01:58 < stefanwouldgo> Actually, it just assumes that there exists  some maximum delay, which is unknown to participants. I don't see how bitcoin could work without that assumption.
02:04 < stefanwouldgo> but it appears that their failure probabilities depend exponentially on this delay delta.
02:17 < stefanwouldgo> This paper https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/454.pdf actually shows that bitcoin is secure in a very similar setting and also mentions that it isn't if you have to assume unbounded delays
02:18 < stefanwouldgo> But I guess the question is if the model is actually a useful one.
02:19 < stefanwouldgo> The main difference here seems to be that PoW naturally heals itself after an attack because you can always see what is the longest chain
02:20 < stefanwouldgo> whereas in PoS there might just be no way to tell
02:20 < gmaxwell> I could publish a paper that showed bitcoin secure in universes where attackers don't exist, that wouldn't make an alternative secure that was also secure under that model. :)
02:21 < stefanwouldgo> sure
02:23 < stefanwouldgo> but I think you are a little harsh in that evaluation. their model seems to be rather natural, and they have proven that both bitcoin and their PoS break down in that model when faced with unlimited delays
02:24 < stefanwouldgo> it's just that degradation probably is much more graceful for bitcoin then for PoS, which I don't think they address
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02:29 < stefanwouldgo> I was just very surprised to see serious academic work being done on PoS vs the nonsense pseudo engineering that ETH is trying to sell as a possile PoS future, so I was a little disappointed that nobody seems to care
02:32 < gmaxwell> there was some extensive review when it first came out, that basically the paper made no effort to actually make a useful claim,
02:32 < gmaxwell> but instead basically hid the bodies under complex claims.
02:34 < gmaxwell> and from the point of view of disclosing biases, it doesn't help that the employer of most of the authors (Charles Hoskinson) is widely viewed to basically be a multi time scammer around here.
02:35 < stefanwouldgo> I must have missed those reviews, thanks for pointing that out
02:36 < stefanwouldgo> I certainly agree about Charles Hoskinson, but note that he isn't the employer of most of these folks, he just gave money to uni researchers
02:39 < gmaxwell> ah, my mistake there. Point though remains after wasting time reviewing some broken crypto in one of his earlier scam coins and feeling the whole expirence was a total waste of time, that certantly lowered the bar for rubbishbinning later work.
02:39 < gmaxwell> (one of his altcoins had a totally busted POW, that I broke pretty completely, and then got flooded with obfscuation in return)
02:43 < stefanwouldgo> I can relate. Can't stand him either. I would be grateful if anybody could point me to that review that you mentioned.
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05:35 < nsh> is this related to https://vitalik.ca/general/2018/08/07/99_fault_tolerant.html ?
05:36 < nsh> (another easypeasy BFT from strong synchronicity assumptions)
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05:37 < nsh> oh no it's claiming dynamic availability mainly
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09:33 < maaku> would have been nice if there was some sort of security disclosure list for altclient and altcoin maintainers
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14:44 < nsh> under over on Riemann Hypothesis being proved on Monday?
14:45 < nsh> (Michael Atiyah claims to have a simple proof based on Dirac, von Neumann and Hirzebruch. many are skeptical as he has made a few claims recently that didn't pan out, but skepticism is boring...)
14:49 < nsh> but if it's proved, then people may need to start working a bit faster on postquantum crypto
14:50 < sipa> what's the relation between RH and quantum computing?
14:53 < nsh> well, not quantum computing as much as analyticity results for finite group exponentiations
14:53 < nsh> but the solutions are the same
14:53 < nsh> or paucity of solutions
14:54 < nsh> it might not help with RSA or ECDLP directly but it probably makes the gap shorter
14:54 < nsh> also, there are these things called holographic algorithms that can solve somewhat contrived versions of problems in #P due to exponential cancellation of product-sums
14:55 < nsh> and i suspect they generalise to integer factoring if not ecdlp but i know nothing about anything so it doesn't matter
14:55 < gmaxwell> A lot of papers get written already just assuming riemann hypothesis holds.
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14:57 < nsh> the truth changes little-to-nothing aye; understanding why could change a lot
14:58 < nsh> but i guess in a 45m presentation that's unlikely
15:02 < waxwing> i always got the vague impression it was related to randomness of primes (i.e. proof means primes are def-o randomly distributed), don't know if that's true, but if so, wouldn't it be more like proving there was no way to 'cheat' on rsa etc.
15:06 < nsh> does shor cheat on rsa?
15:06 < nsh> but yeah, it's as about prime distribution as it is about anything else (doesn't help that it's about almost everything else though...)
15:07 < nsh> *as much as it is
15:09 < nsh> Shor cheats on RSA only to the extent that intermediary states of the calculation cannot all possible exist as once classically but can contribute coherently to the final distribution from which periodicity can be measured, which is the general cheat of QM. analysis cheats by using properties of infinitisemals to avoid intermediary discrete steps in certain calculations too.
15:09 < nsh> holographic algorithms make all the intermediary states redundant by directly cancelling an exponential set of terms
15:09 < nsh> it's all much of a muchness to me
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15:35 < andytoshi> o.O atiyah is not a crank
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15:52 < waxwing> no but seriously, what are the chances :)
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16:26 < andytoshi> heh, i don't believe him. he's not a crank but i have never seen a paper of his with enough details filled in that i could tell if it made sense :P
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18:13 < nsh> fwiw, his last paper(s) on no complex six sphere makes sense as a sketch, but that doesn't mean all the bits can be made explicit
18:14 < nsh> and his result for the RH is just the consequence of following this program proposed by Yau for which his almost complex structure on six-sphere is a necessary step: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~greene/Summary%20of%20Yau%201.pdf
18:15 < nsh> pardon me, that's a program for the complex structure, it doesn't extend to RH
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 22 00:00:16 2018