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01:42 < PaulTroon_> if using the eltoo update scheme for lightning, the settlement tx has to be conditional on release of a secret, but does the update tx also need it? I assume so.
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02:52 < jl2012> there is a question about choice of G: https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/60420/what-does-the-special-form-of-the-base-point-of-secp256k1-allow
02:53 < jl2012> so G = 2G', where G' has a very small x-coordinate
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05:32 < waxwing> right, the assumption is that it's the hash of something, but after investigating people couldn't find out what it was. note there's mathematical reasoning as to why the choice of G doesn't matter (see 'random self-reduction', average (randomly chosen) case is as hard as worst case)
05:32 < waxwing> at least, i'm pretty sure that reasoning applies here.
05:33 < waxwing> also w.r.t NUMS, what sipa said helps, if you want NUMS basepoint, just hash G somehow into what generates it, then the hash'd have to be broken for shenanigans to be possible
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05:54 < andytoshi> jl2012: FYI it is possible to batch-validate taproot and schnorr, with the result that each taproot commitment verification takes only one scalar-point multiply
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05:54 < andytoshi> in fact there is code for this, which is not in the schnorr BIP because it's nonessential and we don't want review exhaustion :)
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07:18 < nickler> PaulTroon_: any party can settle anytime, not sure what secret you're referring to
07:19 < PaulTroon_> @nickler : I just mean for a payment channel network like lightning the receiver has a secret they exchange and then that secret flows back through the network so relays get paid.
07:19 < PaulTroon_> the preimage
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07:20 < PaulTroon_> I should ask on lightning-dev - forgot about that
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07:31 < nickler> PaulTroon_: eltoo is by and large independent of payment routing. The update tx even more so because it doesn't contain HTLC outputs.
07:32 < PaulTroon_> in the paper it was mentioned that HTLCs could be added to the settlement tx for multihop payments
07:35 < nickler> yes, but that doesn't mean the settlement tx is conditional on some secret. Spending the HTLC output requires a secret - same as in current lightning.
07:42 < PaulTroon_> I probably need to read through the ln paper again; but if both parties sign the update tx that spends to some settlement tx with an HTLC, then what happens if the payment is aborted? I wondering about if the update tx is valid but the linked settlment tx isn't
07:45 < waxwing> nsh, just watched the start, but that's quite an interesting way to look at key sharing; the parallelepiped thing is cool, and it immediately makes me wonder whether it generalises to more than 2 participants; e.g. for 3 participants can you construct the same thing in a 4 dimensional parallelepiped (whatever that's called, forgot)
07:46 < nsh> yup
07:46 < nsh> also, slightly worrying it kinda provides a reduction from DLP and RSA to calculating commutation relations in a byzantine key exchange with no secrecy which may in principle be efficiently calculable
07:47 < nsh> but not an immediate threat i think
07:48 < nickler> PaulTroon_: aborting a payment does not invalidate the settlement tx. But both parties will create new update and settlement txs which invalidates (in the lightning security model) the old settlement tx because the new update tx can spend the old one before the old settlement tx.
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07:57 < PaulTroon_> nickler: I must be missing something. It seems like if a malicious counter party commits the update for a failed payment, then there's no way to settle using the previous settlement TX with a revealed preimage.
07:59 < PaulTroon_> nickler: perhaps if both parties have equal value locked up they screw themself
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08:07 < nickler> PaulTroon_: you don't need a preimage to spend an update tx with a settlement tx. As for the HTLCs, if you don't have the preimage you have to wait for the HTLC timeout.
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08:13 < PaulTroon_> nickler: ahh, thanks, I wasn't thinking about the refund aspect of the HTLC.  So it's not a dead end in the case the preimage isn't provided.
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 02 00:00:25 2018