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05:14 < nsh> .title http://stevengoldfeder.com/projects/circuits/sha2circuit.html
05:14 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
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05:55 < esotericnonsense> nsh: lol.
05:55 < esotericnonsense> the source for that page is great
05:56 < esotericnonsense> does the job :P
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10:33 < bitcoin-wizards9> Hi cryptians
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16:43 < rodarmor> Taproot uses `P = C + H(C||S)G`. Why does the hash commit to the combined pubkey? Is it so that a party can't be tricked into paying to what looks like a 2-2 multisig address, but which actually has a taproot script embedded in it?
16:45 < sipa> Let's say we'd use P = C + H(S)G
16:45 < sipa> So an output with point P in it exists.
16:46 < rodarmor> So far so good
16:46 < sipa> Now you can reveal any arbitrary S' together with C' = P - H(S)G, to spend S'
16:47 < sipa> The C inside the hash makes sure that there is only one pair (C,S) that can be revealed for a given point.
16:47 < sipa> Without it, it's not a sound commitment.
16:48 < rodarmor> What's S'?
16:48 < sipa> anything you choose
16:48 < sipa> including OP_TRUE
16:49 < sipa> which would permit you to spend the coins without satsifying any additional conditions
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16:51 < rodarmor> Should that be: C' = P - H(S')G, as in, you tweak P with the desired script S'?
16:52 < sipa> oh, yes :)
16:52 < sipa> so you reveal (P - H("OP_TRUE"), "OP_TRUE") instead of (P,C)
16:52 < sipa> sorry
16:52 < sipa> so you reveal (P - H("OP_TRUE")G, "OP_TRUE") instead of (P,C)
16:53 < rodarmor> Okay, sweet, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything
16:53 < sipa> so clearly this is not a commitment, as you can trivially open it for another value than the one committed to
16:58 < rodarmor> Okay, great, I think I've got it now. Thank you!
17:03 < rodarmor> Has anyone done any work on how close to optimal current SHA-2 (or any other PoW function) ASICs are, by counting the number of operations needed to calculate SHA-2, calculating the minimal number of joules to perform these operations (according to the Landauer limit), and comparing to real chips?
17:03 < rodarmor> It might not be a useful number (as in, we might be so bad at making hardware that the lower limit is zillions of orders of magnitude below current miner efficiency) :P But it would still be interesting to know.
17:11 < nsh> in practice energy/power/thermal-dispersion optimality is a function to fabrication process details incorporating a whole bunch of things at a much higher abstraction / complexity level than the bit landauer floor
17:11 < nsh> there's probably little meaningful science because those operative details are highly proprietary
17:12 < nsh> may be a bunch of corp-confidential data at mining hw producing companies and their immediate up/downstream partners
17:13 < nsh> i haven't seen anything in scienceland though but then again i haven't especially looked
17:15 < nsh> profit is dictated by e.g. time-to-market and good relationships with fab plant peeps and making wise socioeconomic decisions that are again far removed from the hard computational technicalities and the answers you probably most want are in the minds of employees and some verilog files that are worth too much for us to be able to read
17:19 < nsh> (given current process i'd be surprised if the bitflip optimal circuit would result in maximal hashrate because thermal dispersion is probably more operative but i don't know anything about anything and i'm just guessing)
17:25 < sipa> ha, landauer limit... with 1273 W (S9 energy consumption) operating at 90 C, you could compute 950 exahash per second (considering that every hash operations destroys 384 bits going from 640 bits of input to 256 bits of output)
17:25 < sipa> that's 73 million more than reality
17:25 < sipa> *times
17:27 < nsh> so how many calories in a current bitcoin block? :)
17:28 < rodarmor> sipa: Okay, so not really a useful lower bound :P
17:29 < sipa> also, if you'd implement SHA256 using toffoli gates it's possible with 0 energy, right?
17:29 < sipa> :)
17:30 < nsh> scratch space would be pretty astronomical
17:30 < nsh> then you're paying some other way
17:31 < rodarmor> If you were using toffoli gates, wouldn't you have all the extra bits to store in order to keep it reversible?
17:32 < sipa> eh right
17:32 < nsh> this looks interesting: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.00377.pdf
17:32 < rodarmor> Hmm, although that treats SHA-2 as a black box. Unless there's some way to skip lots of SHA-2 operations, then you could likely get a better bound by counting all the bits destroyed in the individual operations (adds, xors, etc)
17:33 < nsh> they kinda unroll/whatever SHA2 into reversible circuit with a view to space constraint
17:33 < nsh> you end up doing some kinda weird garbage collection
17:34 < nsh> there's probably a 0.5th rule of thermodynamics or something here. you gotta manage entropy somehow
17:34 < nsh> s/rule/law/
17:39 < nsh> someone proposed some kinda reversible computing PoW replacement also, but it was a bit harebrained i think: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fthebitcointalk.net%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D1985289.0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
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18:20 < gmaxwell> rodarmor: Landauer limit is mostly worthless. It isn't a precise limit.
18:20 < gmaxwell> it's a lower bound.
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18:21 < gmaxwell> So there isn't any particular reason to think that just because a function looks more energy intensive under that limit than some other function that it will actually be more energy intensive under any realizable model of computation.
18:22 < gmaxwell> Also, if you admit reversable computation, and use general reversable gates and allow unbounded amounts of intermediate state, then all pow functions have equal and very low energy requirements according to that limit.
18:23 < gmaxwell> (because every attempt can uncompute itself to avoid destroying any bits, and so you'd only consume energy for outputing the solution(s))
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