--- Log opened Fri Jan 04 00:00:11 2019 00:01 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:04 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37 -!- Murch [~murch@119.42.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:aca0:e974:f5ca:14a0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:aca0:e974:f5ca:14a0] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:b8e9:e1e0:c077:5902] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:02 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:04 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:b8e9:e1e0:c077:5902] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:05 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:07 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:f849:39be:181f:aed4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:44 -!- grubles_ [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:46 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:51 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02 -!- Murch [~murch@119.42.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 02:04 -!- Murch [~murch@119.42.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:31 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 02:54 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:01 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:03 -!- grubles_ [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:08 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:f46a:e41d:6f5c:e3be:b8ad] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:09 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:f46a:e41d:6f5c:e3be:b8ad] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:24 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:29 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:56 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:02 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:41 -!- Murch [~murch@119.42.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 04:59 -!- wfbarksdale [~wfbarksda@136.25.20.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11 -!- Deinogalerix21 [~Deinogale@89.238.176.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:18 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@93.178.216.72] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org ? ??????????? ?????????. ????-??.] 05:58 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:01 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:07 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:f46a:e41d:6f5c:e3be:b8ad] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:09 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:f46a:e41d:6f5c:e3be:b8ad] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:16 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:42 -!- Deinogalerix21 [~Deinogale@89.238.176.150] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.3] 06:45 -!- Murch [~murch@md35036d0.tmodns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gutfsbyptsksamfl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:40 < tromp> is there a good discussion of height locks vs time locks somewhere? like pros and cons of each? 07:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 < kanzure> height locks usually disfavored due to reorg problems 07:43 < kanzure> no maybe i'm thinking of blockhash locks 07:44 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- Murch [~murch@md35036d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 07:51 < nsh> what is time except as measured by blocks... 07:52 < nsh> is there another trustfree distributed clock tick than difficulty-adjusted block discovery? 07:53 < arubi> radioactive decay? :P 07:58 < midnightmagic> nsh: pulsar observations? 07:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 07:58 < nsh> there's nothing about someone reporting that they've detected a decay event that can convince me they aren't lying 07:59 < nsh> hmm, or maybe there is idk but not immediately obviously 07:59 < nsh> if someone gives me a hash i can determine roughly how much work it took :) 07:59 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:00 < midnightmagic> Oh. You mean post-hoc optional verification? 08:00 < nsh> afaik there's no other method than the production of a leading-zero [or equivalent arithmetic rareness property] that proves the elapse of time via the proxy of having hashed a lot 08:01 < nsh> i tried to figure out another way involving the propagation of information [c] with zooko once but didn't quite figure it out and it'd involve satellites probably 08:01 < Alanius> I think that argument might be assuming a secure hash function. 08:01 < nsh> sure 08:02 < nsh> well, it's assuming a weaker property (that it's not possible to turn a hash output into a lower hash output except by trying again randomly) 08:02 < nsh> but nobody knows how to separate that property from the assumed security properties of cryptographically strong hash functions 08:02 < nsh> afaik 08:03 < nsh> and in bitcoin you only allowed to vary the nonce modulo the malleability issues that are now largely fixed 08:03 < nsh> oh and whatever stuff people use for signalling and your block reward address 08:03 < midnightmagic> pulsar observation just requires local equipment. I think it's doable..? 08:04 < nsh> i suppose a triplet of timestamp, right accession and declination for a pulsar event could be corroborated by others monitoring the same region of sky 08:05 < nsh> but i don't think it's as neat as the hash lottery 08:08 < midnightmagic> pulsar are super stable. irregular observation can just be extrapolated. 08:08 < cjd> I wonder if there is some kind of quantum computing puzzle which is inherently serial, takes the same amount of time no matter how many devices you throw at it... 08:09 < cjd> the radioactive decay comment gave me the idea 08:09 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@93.178.216.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:12 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-178-220-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:12 < midnightmagic> cjd: gwern has a page about timelocking which (I think) overview almost all of the known ways of doing it and which references anti-parallel algos.. 08:12 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:13 < cjd> do you have a link ? 08:13 < cjd> or search terms 08:14 < midnightmagic> mm.. https://www.gwern.net/Timestamping maybe? I might be misremembering. 08:14 < midnightmagic> No: https://www.gwern.net/Self-decrypting-files 08:15 < midnightmagic> Lots of references in there to actual papers, and from there you can just look at those papers' forward cite trees 08:16 < cjd> good synposys there 08:17 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@080-250-077-203-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 < cjd> It would have been neat if there was some trick to encrypt a message behind the PoW of some block in the future 08:18 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 < cjd> so someone could attempt to crack it directly, but it would be much easier to just wait for the miners to reach that block and crack it as part of finding the block 08:20 < cjd> However, one would have to take care in designing such a PoW so that miners can't mine future blocks and thereby put together a 51% attack over the course of weeks or months 08:22 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 08:38 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:56 -!- laptop__ [~laptop@host86-175-127-233.range86-175.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:02 -!- laptop__ is now known as JackH 09:44 < nsh> had an idea thinking about scrypt/PBKDF2/etc: having cryptocurrency mining pools allow people to use their 'excess hashing capacity' as very strong KDFs 09:44 < nsh> as in, every hash that doesn't win PoW is kinda wasted to them, but if they are chained and tied to a particular password input then it's useful to others 09:44 < nsh> (the password input can just be a dummy transaction, and the nominal (but potentially zero) fee for it is how you pay for the service) 09:45 < nsh> all the miners would have to do is accept the inputs as tx and chain their hashing which should be costfree to them 09:46 < nsh> oh no but to repeat it you'd need a list of their nonces or something else out 09:46 < gmaxwell> thats not useful as a normal kdf because... right, you wouldn't get the same results if you ran it twice. 09:46 * nsh nods 09:46 < nsh> it could be made repeatable by changing incrementing nonce to a chained one 09:47 < nsh> but would require more convincing of mining software to be changed 09:47 -!- wfbarksdale [~wfbarksda@136.25.20.77] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 10:02 < cjd> > changing incrementing nonce to a chained one <-- how would you go about verifying that ? 10:03 -!- wfbarksdale [~wfbarksda@136.25.20.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:07 < gmaxwell> nsh: uh assuming they weren't mining at all anymore... 10:07 < nsh> not sure i understand sorry 10:08 < nsh> cjd, picking a new nonce deterministically from the output of the hash that didn't pass PoW 10:08 < gmaxwell> nsh: if there is _any_ data going into the hash that isn't the same the result won't be the same. 10:08 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:08 < gmaxwell> nsh: mining requires including different block headers, transactions, etc. 10:08 < nsh> right, the problem is miners are changing inputs as new tx hit mempool or new blocks discovered 10:08 < nsh> so it's a hot mess really 10:08 < nsh> and my idea was a non-starter perhaps :) 10:09 < nsh> except redundant miners could be used in places wiht excess energy 10:09 < nsh> but you'd still have to convince someone to maintain them etc 10:13 < cjd> IMO there's something like the 2nd law of thermodynamics except it says that any time the PoW can be changed by humans (i.e. useful PoW), miners can use that to gain unfair advantage 10:13 < gmaxwell> nsh: your idea just doesn't make sense, and I think you aren't seeing why yet. 10:14 * nsh nods 10:14 < gmaxwell> nsh: forget changing tx... like today I'm trying to mine a totally different chain than tomorrow... 10:14 < nsh> right 10:14 < gmaxwell> so what you're thinking of would only work if I stopped mining. 10:15 < gmaxwell> Then it would work, though there are complications with existing mining hardware, as they kinda skip nonces 'at random' to to hardware reasons. 10:16 < nsh> ah 10:20 < cjd> This idea of using indistinguishability obfuscation to create a black box which opens when K valid bitcoin hashes have passed is a really amusing one though 10:24 * nsh nods 10:30 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:34 -!- Murch [~murch@mcb5636d0.tmodns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:f849:39be:181f:aed4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:29 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@080-250-077-203-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:40 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- Murch [~murch@mcb5636d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 13:09 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@144.121.220.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 < ruby32> lopp: https://twitter.com/notsofast/status/1081283060912533509 13:12 < ruby32> lopp: If you recall, I suggested looking into Veriblock when examining OP_RETURN. It turns out a significant number of BTC transactions are Veriblock's 13:12 < ruby32> Oh, he's not here 14:11 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@144.121.220.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:20 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 14:33 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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