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[~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:54 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:55 -!- esotericnonsens_ is now known as esotericnonsense 13:04 -!- wfbarksdale [~wfbarksda@136.25.20.77] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10 -!- kbc [~kbc@2600:1700:5b20:47c0:ecef:e2c7:e55a:d530] has quit [Quit: kbc] 13:10 -!- kbc [~kbc@2600:1700:5b20:47c0:ecef:e2c7:e55a:d530] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- kbc [~kbc@2600:1700:5b20:47c0:ecef:e2c7:e55a:d530] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14 -!- kbc [~kbc@2600:1700:5b20:47c0:ecef:e2c7:e55a:d530] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:22 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:23 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 13:24 < adam3us> so new thought re the P2[W]PKH/P2[W]SH and PQ crypto security via the fact that they are hashed. in the case that an HD key is reused, it occurs to be one could use a ZK proof of knowledge of the chain code and 13:24 < adam3us> master key of the even publicly revealed coin private key. (and the ZKP would commit to the scriptPub) 13:24 < adam3us> in the reuse case it's not PQ secure, however in the event that in some decades powerful enough Quantum Computers became available to be a threat to 256bit DL, then other methods of spending these address types could be soft-fork blocked 13:26 < sipa> i can't parse your sentences, but it's known that if we have some form of PKH a future hard fork could permit spending through a pcq zkproof 13:28 < gmaxwell> if thats relevant or not is unclear given the majority of circulating funds are stored in reused addresses. 13:28 < adam3us> right that much is read. but let's consider the case that an HD key has been respent. it's public derivation is something like pk2=H(chaincode,2)G+MPK 13:28 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 < adam3us> in that case you could make a transferable proof of ownership of the chain code using a ZKP even if the private key of pk2 is published 13:29 < adam3us> i really wish people would not reuse but unfortunately people do. even been forced to do it myself by exchange deposit (some limit the number of deposit addresses or can't change) and mining payouts also typically you'd have to update manually 13:30 < adam3us> but other than the ongoing attempt to stamp out address reuse (so don't do that, it is it's own reward) 13:30 < gmaxwell> adam3us: right the other hd derrived keys are not effect IF the chaincode is private. 13:31 < gmaxwell> though lots of things end up publishing chaincodes, handing them to scanning servers, etc. (e.g. the blockchain.info wallets work that way, just to give one example) 13:32 < adam3us> the other thing it occurs to me that this may buy is another alternative or tool/building block re real_or_random and jl2012 two stage commitment approaches. 13:33 < adam3us> but ZKP is already an alternative to that "poor-mans-approach" that doesnt need a zkp. 13:34 < adam3us> gmaxwell: yes samourai sentinel is another tool (read only wallet that accepts Xpub and Ypubs) it's quite handy. but it does tell their server that info, similar to bci. 13:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:35 < adam3us> any ZK dependant approach would need a PQ safe ZKP scheme. i dont know much about those. so I guess that is the advantage of the two stage commitment approaches 13:37 < adam3us> gmaxwell: it could be useful if the private keys of taproot and graftroot had the hash preimage property, eg had an extra hash in their internals before use or maybe they are derived from HD schemes anyway 13:37 < adam3us> (to preserve this argument/defense) 13:37 -!- wfbarksdale [~wfbarksda@136.25.20.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:39 < adam3us> if we assume that 256-bit ECDSA will become realistic in a few decades, IMO ideally we find a privacy preserving scheme to migrate todays utxo set into, to hide which keys have moved; otherwise satoshi's (and other bare PK) keys could be forced to move, or be face being blocked to prevent theft. 13:40 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 13:43 -!- dvknv [~dvknv@cpe-174-102-9-136.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:44 < sipa> adam3us: as long as significant fraction of funds are stored in outputs with known public keys (through reuse, or through known hd derivation), a realistic CQ is a very severe threat to bitcoin 13:45 < sipa> even if your own coins are safe, having large amounts of the currency's supply for grabs isn't a healthy situation, and not really resolvable 13:46 -!- wfbarksdale [~wfbarksda@136.25.20.77] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 < adam3us> sipa: right. i am thinking a future debate about this might conclude that it is better to block from spending coins with addresses with known public keys via ECDSA spending method. 13:47 < sipa> i again can't parse 13:47 < adam3us> better to block than see stolen. close to a proof of burn. people do have solutions at hand, stop reusing addresses and software & services to adopt practices that make that easier. 13:48 < adam3us> tldr better for known public key addresses to be blocked via soft-fork than be stolen. 13:49 -!- dvknv [~dvknv@cpe-174-102-9-136.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 < sipa> that may be the only option if QC is a reality, but it is incredibly invasive still 13:50 < adam3us> agree. i have spoken to early miners who do not move their coins, because of privacy or desire to not expose their IT systems to risk. 13:51 < adam3us> if there were in some years a new utxo model that could provide better privacy, maybe some of those people would move them. 13:51 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:51 < adam3us> some are quite technical but not moving on purpose. some people like to do yearly practice spends and move to new HD keys annually. others like to not touch coins long term. 13:52 < adam3us> for example some did not claim forks for this kind of reason. 13:57 < adam3us> are taproot/graftroot keys bare PK format? 13:58 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 13:58 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:04 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:04 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 14:08 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:10 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 14:14 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:24 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35 -!- 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