--- Log opened Mon Jan 14 00:00:20 2019
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01:25 < skelpy> Hi,  my login username to the wiki is [b]Skelpy[/b]  We would like to add our blockchain to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Skelpy  Thanks!
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02:48 < lifelifelif> hello
02:48 < lifelifelif> = =
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07:04 < kanzure> "Biased nonce sense: Lattice attacks against weak ECDSA signatures in cryptocurrencies" https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/023.pdf
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07:08 < nsh> nice title :)
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07:11 < waxwing> i posted that a couple of days ago
07:12 < waxwing> we were talking about the dark wallet multisig (which i thought was super interesting) and gmaxwell figured out the origin of the 64 bit nonces, which was also super interesting. nice paper.
07:13 < cjd> isn't it ok to take H(private || message) for the nonce ?
07:13 < cjd> that would save a lot of pain and siffering with "random" numbers
07:17 < waxwing> cjd, that's essentially what rfc6979 does
07:17 < waxwing> (although it's a little more involved ofc)
07:17 < waxwing> basically all (sane) wallets are doing that now. except for some special functionality here and there i guess.
07:17 < cjd> cool
07:18 < cjd> I saw it in ed25519 code and it struck me as an obvious good idea
07:18 < waxwing> yes, i've heard people say 'ed25519 is better than ecdsa because it has deterministic nonces' which is, like, a bit confused :)
07:22 < cjd> I guess it's "better than ecdsa because it's quick" (?)
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07:46 < sipa> cjd: hardly :)
07:47 < cjd> since I'm working on a PoW and trying to throw in everything that I'd like to see in optimized OpenCL, I have been considering throwing in an eddsa or a secp256k sig validation
07:48 < cjd> just remove the final consttime_memcmp() so that the validation becomes a sort of hash
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07:51 < sipa> why?
07:52 < cjd> because in a couple of years, it'll be as easy to find fast GPU secp256 as it is to find fast GPU sha256
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07:54 < sipa> why would that not be true for any other PoW function, assuming enoigh economic incentives exist to fund development?
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07:55 < cjd> IMO it is true for any PoW function, which is why I like the idea of shoving useful things into the PoW
07:56 < nsh> there have been arguments that adding 'utility' in that sense to the PoW gives no benefits, because roughly the existing benefits are dependent somehow on the PoW solving the problems it does and not additional ones
07:56 < nsh> but i don't recall the arguments well enough to replicate them properly
07:57 < nsh> maybe vaguely it might detract from the statistical properties of the block discovery process if it is coupled to some other external problems
07:57 < nsh> or the dynamic membership properties or other desiderata
07:57 < cjd> You can't allow people to change the definition of the work problem otherwise miners do so
07:57 < sipa> cjd: oh i see
07:58 < cjd> but making the work problem look very much like a problem that otherwise would be interesting to solve... that drives research in the direction of solving interesting things
07:58 < nsh> there may be convergence. i am inceasingly unconvinced that multiple problems cannot be solved by the same process
07:59 < sipa> that may work, but i think it may be a bit too late, and also, optimizations tend to be found that make the hardware not usable for anything but exactly PoW
07:59 < nsh> that is, i think processes can be 'overloaded' interpretationally so that more is done at the same time than when the interpretations were singular
07:59 < nsh> well, we might try and reduce other problems to PoW then
07:59 < nsh> rather than achieve convergence in the other direction
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08:00 < cjd> example: https://github.com/cjdelisle/PacketCrypt/blob/master/src/CryptoCycle.h#L6
08:00 < nsh> to use a nontrivial example: solving a physics simulation is in some sense establishing a proof of (minimal) work
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08:00 < nsh> or action
08:00 < nsh> which is roughly the same thing i suppose
08:00 < cjd> nsh: we definitely need to continue research in this area, but I don't see anything working for now
08:00  * nsh nods
08:01 < nsh> it feels closer at least than it did until recently, from my perspective :)
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09:01 < gmaxwell> kanzure: re: earlier link https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/83559/what-is-the-origin-of-insecure-64-bit-nonces-in-signatures-in-the-bitcoin-chain/
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14:54 < belcher> is there an alternative source of logs for this channel? the link in the topic uses botbot.me which is shut down
15:00 < nsh> cc kanzure
15:00 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/
15:01 < nsh> ty
15:01 < nsh> and at whitequark and at botbot.me i believe
15:02 < nsh> ( https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/bitcoin-wizards/2019-01-14     https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2019-01-14 )
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15:08 < belcher> ty kanzure nsh
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15:10  * nsh nods, smiles
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 15 00:00:11 2019