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01:10 < real_or_random> cjd: what sipa and I are working on is actually a pseudorandom function, which I guess is not useful for PoW, because it has a secret key
01:10 < cjd> neat
01:10 < cjd> what is the objective which you're building it for ?
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01:14 < real_or_random> it should be (rather) efficient to prove in a bulletproof, and this is useful in the context of musig in order to get deterministic nonces. deterministic nonces are currently not possible, see the musig paper for details of the problem
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02:16 < cjd> real_or_random: ahh ok, multisig algorithm with deterministic nonces ?   (all of this goes way over my head but at least I know sort of what it's for)
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03:07  * nsh rereads the musig paper
03:08 < waxwing> i guess it'll be due to the fact you have to commit to the nonces before you start.
03:09 < nsh> can't find the paper. does someone have link to hand?
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03:54 < waxwing> https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/068 nsh
03:54 < nsh> thank you kindly, master waxwing :)
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03:55 < waxwing> oh yeah, i did read that but forgot. if you try to repeat the construction process with a counterparty using rfc6979 you end up leaking your privkey. oopsies.
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03:59 < nsh> heh
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05:51 < nickler> MuSig nonce commitments aren't the problem for deterministic nonces. Usually for deterministic nonces you hash the challenge into the nonce. That is P and m for regular Schnorr. But in MuSig, the challenge is also determined by the sum of nonces which you don't know when generating your nonce. If you'd just hash P and m to generate your nonce and the second time you do that another participant changes their nonce (i.e. doesn't generate it determin
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06:18 < waxwing> nickler, i got a cutoff at "doesn't generate it determin.."
06:22 < nickler> istically), you will sign twice with the same nonce for a different challenge. So the solution is that you only sign if everyone proves that they have generated their nonce deterministically.
06:22 < nickler> waxwing: thx
06:23 < nsh> ah, neat
06:24 < waxwing> " Usually for deterministic nonces you hash the challenge into the nonce". I don't get that. THe challenge is usually the fiat-shamir of the previous transcript, for simplest (schnorr) case that's the nonce-point itself, i.e. the commit in sigma commit-challenge-response.
06:24 < waxwing> by that language, 'hash the challenge into the nonce' doesn't make sense.
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06:27 < waxwing> i guess you're thinking more generally, like a deterministic nonce based on hash(privkey, message), here the message is like the challenge, is that it?
06:29 < real_or_random> yeah I think calling it challenge is misleading
06:32 < real_or_random> so in MuSig, R = sum of all (public) nonces, challenge = hash(R, ...). when creating the nonce deterministically, you would want to hash in the challenge (which is equivalent to hashing in R) but this creates a cyclic dependence. you can't compute this
06:33 < nsh> [sequentially]
06:34 < nsh> [you can computer a cyclic dependence in parallel/simultaneously but that's perhaps not germane to the discussion at hand]
06:34 < nsh> *compute
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06:39 < real_or_random> well, I think we're talking about different things here. you can't compute x and y such that x=H(y) and y=H(x)
06:40 < real_or_random> where "can't compute" means "maybe such x and y don't exist but even if they exist, it's computationally hard to find them"
06:42 < nsh> traditionally but e.g. in CT with borromean ring signatures and rewinding it's possible to something a lot like that
06:42 < nsh> i'm not trying to suggest that it applies in the context of the musig discussion; it just chimed with other things i've been thinking about lately :)
06:48 < nsh> [however i appear to be claiming indirectly that it is possible to computer a cyclic hash even in sha256 but i should very strongly caveat this by saying it's not possible with the kinds of computation that we are in the habit of using]
06:48 < nsh> *compute
06:49 < nsh> [the main still-partially-unsolved problem being what represents in some manner the astronomically large intermediary computational state that would be required without having to use astronomical amounts of physically spatiotemporarilly distinct state-bearing bits of matter]
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06:51 < waxwing> real_or_random, i think a simpler way to say it is that you must change from "nonce is a function of privkey and message" to "nonce is a function of privkey and message and other nonce-points" to avoid reproducing k values that leads to the standard schnorr privkey leak, in this multisig interactive case, so as you say that's impossible/circular.
06:51 < waxwing> hmm as i reached the end of that sentence the "simpler" goal was not really achieved, oh well :)
06:51 < nsh> [the answer-being-elaborated is to appreciate that states can be relative rather than absolute-as-physically-distinct] and that relatively-ontic states can still compute on one another, and that you don't need supercooled topological unobtainum to do this]
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07:15 < nickler> waxwing: I meant hash the challenge without own nonce
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07:58 < waxwing> nickler, got it, thx
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16:14 < coco> I've read about DAGs and how they compare to 'block chains', and I don't find any good explanation on how they avoid the Double Spending problem. Any insight?
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16:15 < kanzure> spend ordering
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16:18 < sipa> coco: exactly the same way as in a blockchain
16:18 < sipa> you need a primary parent or so to find the actual transaction ordering
16:19 < sipa> other parents may matter for weighing blocks differently, but they don't particioate in deciding the contents of the chain
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 19 00:00:25 2019