--- Log opened Wed Feb 06 00:00:42 2019
00:17 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:25 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.2]
00:27 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nxnscjygbipdjqno] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:28 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:29 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:47 -!- wildermind [uid300433@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-reoryszxaxlduyob] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:48 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:49 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:05 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:24 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:31 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
01:31 -!- mn3monic [jsz@2605:6400:30:fb3a:dd44:dd1e:1ba3:cc5f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:31 -!- mn3monic [jsz@2605:6400:30:fb3a:dd44:dd1e:1ba3:cc5f] has quit [Changing host]
01:31 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:37 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:40 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-70-217.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:40 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-70-217.nc.de] has quit [Changing host]
01:40 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:43 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:01 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:06 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
02:12 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:13 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:18 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
02:18 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:19 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:20 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
02:20 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqbwikeuyhbpdarx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
02:21 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:52 -!- drexl [~drexl@cpc130676-camd16-2-0-cust445.know.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:13 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
03:13 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:20 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:21 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:26 -!- KobeShaq [5a56b5f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.86.181.243] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:30 -!- KobeShaq [5a56b5f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.86.181.243] has quit [Client Quit]
03:46 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:55 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@95.179.151.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:55 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@95.179.151.101] has quit [Changing host]
03:55 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:58 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:00 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:02 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.2]
04:03 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:08 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:09 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:14 -!- Deinogalerix21 [~Deinogale@89.238.176.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:17 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-249-218.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
04:20 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-249-218.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:21 -!- Deinogalerix21 [~Deinogale@89.238.176.150] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.3]
04:22 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:24 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:26 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-feahpfoxkewnmcgt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
04:28 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@devuan/developer/jaromil] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
04:29 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:38 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:40 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:46 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:01 -!- riclas [riclas@148.63.37.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:06 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:10 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
05:25 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:28 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:29 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:32 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:44 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:48 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:49 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:49 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:51 -!- jtimon [~quassel@92.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:00 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:04 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:04 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:04 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:07 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iaxmmyzffhbxzweh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:07 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:08 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:10 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/]
06:12 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:22 -!- DAM [05591d15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.5.89.29.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:23 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:24 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Client Quit]
06:38 -!- DAM [05591d15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.5.89.29.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
07:10 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:10 -!- zekk [~zekk@178.157.196.108] has quit [Client Quit]
07:11 -!- NicknameNickname [5cf194b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.241.148.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:22 -!- racoonslug [uid321818@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-etgqwxpcowgystug] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:23 -!- NicknameNickname [5cf194b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.241.148.176] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
07:37 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:42 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:42 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has quit [Changing host]
07:42 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:43 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:43 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
07:44 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rm -rf /]
07:45 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:50 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:51 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
07:54 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
07:55 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:57 < vfP56jSe> sipa: Just realized you were the author of the BIP, an honor! Are additional footnotes expanding a bit on the convo above welcome contribution to the BIP or is it fixed in stone already?
07:57 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:42 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004CEA193E007DD2852BDE194797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:43 < nsh> 'Foundational Cryptography Framework for machine-checked proofs of cryptography in the computational model.' - https://github.com/adampetcher/fcf
08:43 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p5B010E46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
08:46 < riclas> bip's are never fixed. you can always suggest improvements vfP56jSe
08:53 < sipa> vfP56jSe: you mean improve the wording, or change the semantics?
08:54 < sipa> riclas: bip-schnorr isn't published yet, we can change anything
09:08 < riclas> yeah i know
09:09 < riclas> his question applies either way
09:38 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
09:46 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:52 < vfP56jSe> sipa: I mean adding new information or linking to new information like how the residuosity of y equals that of YZ and such
09:53 < nsh> ('residuality', probabably)
09:53 < nsh> although -osity has a ring to it
09:56 < vfP56jSe> nsh: I think it's residuoosity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_residuosity_problem
09:57 < vfP56jSe> residuosity*
09:57 < nsh> oh, shows what i know :)
09:59 < sipa> vfP56jSe: the bip does mention that jacobi(y(P)) == jacobi(YZ) if Y and Z are jacobian coordinates of P
10:00 < vfP56jSe> sipa: I see! In the Optimizations section
10:03 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@vm8.ganeti.dyne.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:03 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@vm8.ganeti.dyne.org] has quit [Changing host]
10:03 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@devuan/developer/jaromil] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:07 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
10:21 -!- jtimon [~quassel@92.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:33 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:38 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:49 -!- wildermind [uid300433@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-reoryszxaxlduyob] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
10:51 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:51 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:55 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
11:04 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
11:05 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:07 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nxnscjygbipdjqno] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
11:14 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit []
11:17 -!- mint_ [~mint@d64-180-191-179.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:40 < vfP56jSe> Why does not having elliptic curve operations inside the hash help with batch verification?
11:40 < sipa> how would you batch it? :)
11:41 < sipa> batching works by combining multiple equations to test into a single equation which can be verified faster
11:41 < sipa> but if you need to compute e1 = H(EC operations), and e2 = H(EC operations), you can't combine the two sets of EC operations
11:42 < sipa> as it's not just an equation to check, you need the exact output to feed it into the hash
11:43 < vfP56jSe> Ah, I think the part that I'm missing is that you can combine sets of EC operations so that they take less time than if executed individually then added together
11:44 < vfP56jSe> Where can I read up more about that/see examples of that
11:44 < sipa> say you have to check A = xB + yC, and D = vE + wF
11:45  * vfP56jSe listening
11:45 < sipa> and you're given all the points and scalars (including A and D)
11:46 < sipa> you come up with two random number r1 and r2, and instead compute r1*(A - xB - yC) + r2*(B - vE - wF), or r1*A + (-x*r1)*B + (-y*r1)*C + r2*D + (-v*r2)*E + (-w*r2)*F
11:46 < sipa> and check whether the result is 0
11:46 < sipa> with unpredictable values r1 and r2, this will only be true whenever both equations hold
11:46 < sipa> (except with negligable probability)
11:47 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:47 < sipa> agree?
11:47 < vfP56jSe> agreed!
11:47 < sipa> there is a small extra optimization that you can actually choose r1 or r2 equal to 1; only the ratio between the two needs to be unpredictable
11:48 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:48 < vfP56jSe> right
11:48 < sipa> if some of the points A/B/C and D/E/F overlap (usually the generator occurs in both), it compacts even further, because you'll just sum the relevant scalars
11:49 < sipa> say C=F, then the equation is r1*A + (-x*r1)*B + (-y*r1-w*r2)*C + r2*D + (-v*r2)*E for example
11:49 < sipa> so
11:50 < sipa> then you can use a "multi-exponentiation" algorithm to compute that sum of EC multiplications faster than computing the individual multiplications and summing them
11:51 < sipa> there are various algorithms to do this (quite remarkably), but the most known ones are probably Strauss' algorithm (also known as Shamir's trick), Bos-Coster, and Pippenger's algorithm
11:51 < sarang> It's such a simple and elegant way to go about it
11:51 < sipa> in particular Bos-Coster is quite elegant and accessible
11:52 < vfP56jSe> The BIP doesn't specify which algorithm so people can choose freely?
11:52 < sipa> of course
11:52 < sarang> They all have to give the same result
11:52 < sipa> it also doesn't explain how to do EC multiplication
11:52 < sipa> and it doesn't explain group theory
11:52 < sipa> :p
11:52 < vfP56jSe> "that sum of EC multiplications" = the entire "r1*A + (-x*r1)*B + (-y*r1-w*r2)*C + r2*D + (-v*r2)*E" ?
11:52 < sipa> yes
11:52 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:53 < sarang> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/486 has a neat chart showing the difference between two algorithms
11:54 < sipa> if you want to write a production-ready version of this you want a whole set of optimizations (more than you can reasonably explain in a BIP), plus development and testing practices that probably take years of engineering time
11:54 < vfP56jSe> So this way, we get the benefit of 1. Being able to sum the relevant scalars like "(-y*r1-w*r2)*C" 2. Use a "multi-exponentiation" algorithm to calculate the sum of EC multiplications like "r1*A + (-x*r1)*B + (-y*r1-w*r2)*C + r2*D + (-v*r2)*E"?
11:55 < vfP56jSe> sarang: Thanks for the link!
11:56 < vfP56jSe> In the BIP, "(s1 + a2s2 + ... + ausu)G" on the LHS of the equality we're testing is an example of #1, and the RHS is an example of #2 as I described above, correct?
11:57 < sipa> correct
11:57 < vfP56jSe> Wow cryptography isn't that intimidating afterall...
11:57 < vfP56jSe> Esp. with help from you guys haha
11:58 < sipa> i think the important part is realizing that you're certainly smart enough to design a system you can't break yourself - but others may
12:00 < vfP56jSe> Any way to mitigate against attacks from others?
12:00 < sipa> yes
12:00 < sipa> peer review
12:00 < sipa> :)
12:01  * vfP56jSe looks forward to the day when he can peer review Schnorr implementations
12:01 < sipa> i mean: never assume that something is secure because it looks safe to you
12:01 < vfP56jSe> Very true
12:02 < sipa> and provable security can help, but despite the name, security proofs don't actually prove something is secure - more accurately they teach you under exactly what sets of assumptions something is secure
12:02 < vfP56jSe> Do people here have any recommendations for other things to read that are as accessible as this BIP?
12:02 -!- maluk [~maluk@static-208-124-107-200.consolidated.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
12:03 < sipa> vfP56jSe: waxwing has a number of pretty readable guides to several constructions used in cryptocurrencies
12:03 < vfP56jSe> sipa: Right, yeah it doesn't prove anything absolute but at least you can reduce to a set of assumptions that might be simpler
12:03 < sipa> vfP56jSe: yes, but even then - many things can go wrong that circumvent the proof
12:03 < sipa> especially when composing different pieces of cryptography
12:05 < vfP56jSe> Right... sipa do you have links to what specifically you're talking about from waxwing?
12:05 < vfP56jSe> Also I've been trying to understand MuSig... Any prereqs to understanding that?
12:11 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:12 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:13 < sipa> understanding that MuSig *works*... you probably know enough if you can read the schnorr BIP
12:14 < sipa> an intuition for why it is secure means you need to be familiar with the style of attacks against these constructions, and see it avoids them
12:14 < sipa> proving why it is secure.... i don't know enough for that
12:14 < sipa> (the paper has a proof, but it's beyond my skill)
12:14 -!- maluk [~maluk@static-208-124-107-200.consolidated.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:15 < sipa> by "works" i mean: show that if honest users follow the signing protocol, they end up with a signature that the verification eq accepts
12:15 < vfP56jSe> What should I read to "be familiar with the style of attacks against these constructions"
12:16 < sipa> "A Generalized Birthday Problem"
12:16 < sipa> by D Wagner
12:17 < sipa> the MuSig paper includes an explanation of an earlier version of the construction, and an attack based on wagner's algorithm against it
12:17 < sipa> section 3.2
12:19 < vfP56jSe> Thank you
12:24 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
12:24 < nickler> vfP56jSe: waxwings block https://joinmarket.me and his writeup "from zero (knowledge) to bulletproofs" https://github.com/AdamISZ/from0k2bp/blob/master/from0k2bp.pdf
12:24 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-79-97-17.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:24 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-79-97-17.nc.de] has quit [Changing host]
12:24 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:28 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:29 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
12:30 -!- maluk [~maluk@static-208-124-107-200.consolidated.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:30 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:36 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:39 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
12:43 -!- jtimon [~quassel@92.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:50 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:53 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004CEA1EA2007DD2852BDE194797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:54 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004CEA193E007DD2852BDE194797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
13:01 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004CEA1ED9007DD2852BDE194797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:02 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004CEA1EA2007DD2852BDE194797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
13:03 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
13:06 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:08 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:09 -!- jtimon [~quassel@92.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: gone]
13:09 -!- jtimon [~quassel@92.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:16 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:17 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:29 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:31 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
13:31 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:37 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:41 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:43 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:04 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
14:17 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:17 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:23 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
14:24 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
14:27 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
14:30 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:42 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
14:45 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:58 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
15:00 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:01 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:05 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
15:13 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:19 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:32 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:45 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:56 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:06 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:12 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:13 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:16 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
16:17 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:20 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:23 -!- mint_ [~mint@d64-180-191-179.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:26 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:31 -!- altona [~altona@CPEf0f2495a3c83-CMf0f2495a3c80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:32 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:32 -!- borlando [~borlando@177.79.18.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:38 -!- borland [~borlando@179.187.225.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:38 -!- borlando [~borlando@177.79.18.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:46 < waxwing> re: "security proofs don't actually prove something is secure - more accurately they teach you under exactly what sets of assumptions something is secure" : the recent zcash thing (at least going from the blog) illustrates the unfortunate reality that even somehow doesn't cut it, security proofs seem to be flawed sometimes
16:46 < waxwing> but i guess it really depends on how complex it is, among other things.
16:47 < waxwing> even *that* somehow ... etc , sorry
16:47 < sipa> waxwing: i should have added "even flawless security proofs" :)
16:49 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:53 -!- borland [~borlando@179.187.225.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Quit]
16:59 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:03 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:03 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
17:17 < gmaxwell> waxwing: the zcash stuff before didn't have a security proof at all, IIRC.
17:17 < gmaxwell> waxwing: also, my understanding is that the snark stuff in general is not provable under typical security models, because they make security assumptions which are non-falsifyable.
17:19 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:24 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:25 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
17:25 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:30 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:42 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
17:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:48 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:48 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:53 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:53 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
17:53 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:53 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
17:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:57 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:00 -!- comedy [~comedy@ool-182ec644.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:04 -!- altona [~altona@CPEf0f2495a3c83-CMf0f2495a3c80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit []
18:08 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:20 -!- comedy [~comedy@ool-182ec644.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: comedy]
18:27 -!- comedy [~comedy@ool-182ec644.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:28 < comedy> 🙂
18:30 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:33 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
18:34 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-72-17.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:34 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-72-17.nc.de] has quit [Changing host]
18:34 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:41 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:48 -!- comedy [~comedy@ool-182ec644.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: comedy]
18:50 -!- riclas [riclas@148.63.37.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
18:53 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@69.161.195.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:53 < Madars> there are impossibility results in the standard model (e.g. Gentry-Wichs), but we do have SNARKs in random-oracle model which, while non-falsifiable, is widely accepted (the tightest Schnorr reductions, Bulletproofs, etc all rely on it)
18:57 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
18:58 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:09 -!- racoonslug [uid321818@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-etgqwxpcowgystug] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
19:13 -!- comedy [~comedy@ool-182ec644.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:15 < gmaxwell> Madars: thanks, indeed. RO model is happily accepted in the world of pratical cryptosystems.
19:17 -!- comedy [~comedy@ool-182ec644.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:20 -!- drexl [~drexl@cpc130676-camd16-2-0-cust445.know.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: drexl]
19:28 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:33 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:33 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:34 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
19:34 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:35 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:36 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit]
19:42 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:45 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:49 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:50 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:51 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:52 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:57 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
19:58 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-135-248.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:00 -!- rusty2 is now known as rusty
20:00 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:02 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:07 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:08 -!- ddustin_ [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:11 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20:11 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:17 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:18 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:20 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:29 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:31 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:50 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
21:03 -!- ddustin_ [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:04 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:08 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:10 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:23 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:52 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:04 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:04 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:09 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:45 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:54 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:06 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004CEA1ED900813C9C258768A322.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:07 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004CEA1ED9007DD2852BDE194797.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:11 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:14 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:16 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iaxmmyzffhbxzweh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
23:23 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
23:37 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wneuwupisdglklys] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:52 -!- zekk [~zekk@2a06:4001:901d:0:68cd:6542:eb24:dd98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:52 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:53 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
--- Log closed Thu Feb 07 00:00:42 2019