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(www.adiirc.com)] 14:42 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:42 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:57 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:57 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 -!- nephyrin [~neph@2601:600:817f:a19a:a5cf:8446:c53:57b2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:13 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15 -!- michael__ [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:35 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42 -!- jimmysong_ [~jimmysong@72-48-253-51.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42 -!- jimmysong [~jimmysong@72-48-253-51.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43 -!- Dyaheon [~Dya@dsl-trebng21-58c18d-23.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:46 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- booyah_ [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:b004:2ce9:22aa:d2c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 16:32 -!- booyah_ [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33 -!- booyah_ [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:38 -!- booyah_ [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39 -!- booyah_ [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:39 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:42 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@136.52.18.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 < booyah_> would there be any benefits for bitcoin to use ed25519 instead secp256k1? even if not enough to switch (probably not a good idea) but just to compare them 16:58 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:00 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@136.52.18.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:314a:7d50:a1ef:59be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:02 < booyah_> gmaxwell: so the problem with cofactors in ed25519 is this one? - "Curve25519, which has a cofactor of 8. Such curves require some extra care in the protocol that uses them. For instance, when doing a Diffie-Hellman key exchange over Curve25519, the Diffie-Hellman private keys must be chosen as multiples of 8 (which is expressed as: "set the three least significant bits to zero"); this ensures that the points will be in the proper subgroup" 17:02 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:03 < sipa> booyah_: yes, the curve has points (87.5% of them, to be exact) which do not belong to the subgroup used in cryptographic applications 17:04 < booyah_> I assume any proper library implementing ed25519 would take care to do that, so that would be a bit harder for library creator, but not for user like bitcoin? 17:04 < sipa> it's a rather unconventional construction as far as elliptic curve crypto goes - the designers took care to make sure all unusual parts about it were fine for the specific purpose of ECDH (for curve255) and signatures (for ed25519) 17:05 -!- booyah_ is now known as booyah 17:05 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:314a:7d50:a1ef:59be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:06 < sipa> but because of those unconventional choices, harder to integrate into other things 17:06 < sipa> booyah: how is bitcoin a user? 17:07 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:09 < sipa> you could propose a softfork to introduce opcodes that do ed25519 validation in bitcoin... the cost would be introduction of a ed25519 implementation in bitcoin's consensus rules 17:09 < sipa> but then impose a burden on wallet implementations etc to make sure they get bip32 etc right 17:12 < gmaxwell> which, publish schemes for bip32 have been broken and insecure because even people thinking carefully manage to get it wrong. 17:12 < gmaxwell> it's just a hazard. 17:12 < gmaxwell> Which verges into kind of absurd considering that the primary marketing point for it is that its 'safer'-- but that claim just turns out to not be all that true in practice. 17:13 < gmaxwell> Basically, there is no replacement for doing things right. ed25519 is structually somewhat safer against some kinds of misimplementation, but substantially weaker against others. In practice, I think the tradeoff has shown itself not to be a good one. 17:15 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:314a:7d50:a1ef:59be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:15 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@104-56-112-203.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 17:16 < booyah> gmaxwell: ensuring that DH private key k is (k%8)==0 is trivial, are there other pitfals? 17:17 < sipa> booyah: but it's not just DH 17:17 < sipa> this is a test, and transformation, you need to take into account in every EC operation you do in any protocol 17:18 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:18 < sipa> like, go look at the bugs monero had 17:18 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-249-218.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:19 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:19 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:314a:7d50:a1ef:59be] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:20 < sipa> booyah: for DH, it's relatively simple - for signatures too, if you take certain things into account 17:20 < sipa> but for anything else the burden is thinking through exactly what to take into account 17:20 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-249-218.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:21 < booyah> ok so that fact with k%8 makes it harder to build more clever ideas on top of that curve? 17:21 < sipa> yup 17:23 < booyah> this site makes assertion that secp256k1 is "not safe" in few categories, while ed25519 is according to them - https://safecurves.cr.yp.to/ 17:24 < sipa> the site is also created by the authors of ed25519 :) 17:24 < booyah> and allaged by them problems with secp are: ECDLP/disc , ECC/ladder, ECC/complete, ECC/ind, as we see in that longer table there 17:25 < sipa> there is nothing wrong with the properties they highlight of course - but many of them are very minor issues 17:25 < booyah> I guess this problems, are timing attacks etc, that are fixed in current implementation of secp256k1 as used in bitcoin? 17:25 < sipa> of course 17:25 < booyah> they refused to update it? 17:25 < sipa> their only claim is that the naive implementation is less likely to be constant time in secp256k1 17:25 < sipa> it's not about any specific implementation 17:26 < sipa> but nobody in their right mind should ever use a naive implementation for any production use anyway 17:26 < sipa> and they're right - you need to take a bunch of pitfalls into account when implementing secp256k1 17:26 < sipa> but there are other types of pitfalls that apply when implementing ed25519 17:28 < gmaxwell> or even the same, ones. 17:29 < gmaxwell> e.g. the ed25519 implementation that you got for years when you googled python ed25519 used double and add -- grossly non-constant time. 17:30 < gmaxwell> basically their argument is that it's easier to make a constant time implementation. But implementing it is not a question of ease, it's a question of gross incompetence or not. 17:30 < gmaxwell> and no amount of different tradeoffs can make an implementer competent. 17:30 < booyah> sipa: how portable is current Bitcoin's implemenation of secp256k1? should work on any OS right? but needs asm which limits avability of cpu architectures? 17:30 < sipa> booyah: it's pure C89 if you want 17:31 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31 < sipa> booyah: the asm optimizations are optional 17:31 < booyah> sipa: the version free of timing attacks etc is C89? 17:31 < gmaxwell> of course. 17:31 < sipa> yes 17:31 < booyah> hmm how it assures that compiler will not make some parts not constant time 17:32 < sipa> by making reasonable assumptions about compiler intelligence... and manual verification 17:32 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@93.178.216.72] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org ? ??????????? ?????????. ????-??.] 17:32 < gmaxwell> there are ed25519 implementations are not completely free of timing attacks... because timing attacks are a property of the implementation, not the curve. 17:34 < gmaxwell> Unfortunately, there is no replacement for actually measuring the specific usage. E.g. some older arm cores the mul instruction takes a data dependant amount of time. libsecp256k1 isn't constant time on that hardware, and nor is any of the published ed25519 code that I'm aware of. 17:34 < gmaxwell> Though thats a pretty obscure example. 17:34 < booyah> seems secp256k1 is quite nice then. should it be promoted to be used by other projects in place of ed25519, for projects that might plan on doing more advanced crypto? 17:35 < gmaxwell> (also, libsecp256k1 has blinding, so even if the constant timeness failed, there is still some protection... I've not seen any ed25519 implementation do this, though they could, though its probably made more complicated by cofactor) 17:35 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@93.178.216.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 < booyah> if it is in fact same/better then would be nice to have user base (always better), while seems everoune rather goes with sodium (and ed25519 there) 17:36 < gmaxwell> booyah: maybe? projects shouldn't just be picking raw cryptographic primitives. The security depends on the whole system 17:36 < sipa> different use cases require different priorities 17:36 < booyah> gmaxwell: need to pick a lib tho 17:36 < sipa> e.g. safecurves also promotes having an elligator construction available... but that inherently requires a cofactor 17:37 < sipa> if you don't need elligator (mapping of curve points to uniform strings), that's a pretty weird tradeoff 17:37 < gmaxwell> sipa: well safecurves erroniously believes that there is no constant time value to point or point to value construction. 17:38 < sipa> ha 17:39 < gmaxwell> booyah: the point I'm making is that sodium doesn't do those 'advanced' things either, so it's not like you can used that. 17:40 < booyah> ok so for signatures (ECDSA), both curves are fine; for more complex stuff ed25519 is error prone to do right. and for DH? 17:40 < gmaxwell> it doesn't have ring signatures of any form, multisigning, blind signing, threshold signing, PAKE of any form, or ZKPs of any form except a plain digital signature. 17:40 < gmaxwell> for DH ed25519 isn't used but the related 'curve25519' is used. 17:41 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:314a:7d50:a1ef:59be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:41 < gmaxwell> And curve25519 allows for a particularly elegant DH implementation. 17:41 < booyah> gmaxwell: isn't x25519 different construct but same mathemathical curve 17:41 < sipa> ed25519 and curve25519 are different, but isomorphic curves 17:41 < gmaxwell> booyah: it's an isomorphic curve, the coordinates are different. 17:41 < sipa> i'm not sure about x25519 17:41 < gmaxwell> So you can't reuse the same code. 17:41 < booyah> ok. and secp256k1 for DH? 17:42 < gmaxwell> It's fine. There is a different but morally similar optimization for DH for secp256k1. We don't currently bother to use it, though there is a pull request for it. 17:43 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:314a:7d50:a1ef:59be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43 < booyah> do you know if performance in DH is also basically the same for both? 17:43 < gmaxwell> If all you ever cared about was DH, and you don't care to use the not yet patent expired optimizations for secp256k1, I think the edge goes to curve25519. 17:44 < gmaxwell> Though not by a huge margin, also performance depends a lot on implementation tradeoffs. 17:44 < gmaxwell> e.g. how much memory, how much code written in asm, etc. 17:45 < gmaxwell> of course there is another axis to consider, many parties are now recommending using curves larger thatn 256 bits... 17:45 < booyah> hmm really? are 256's in danger on classical computers? 17:45 < sipa> see curve448 for example 17:45 < gmaxwell> Not as far as anyone knows. 17:48 < booyah> does bitcoin considers? 17:48 < gmaxwell> But for most applications the computation/communications cost of a ~500 bit curve aren't a problem. And varrious parties think that larger curves will be substantially stronger against quantum computers. 17:48 < gmaxwell> in bitcoin the tradeoffs are pretty darn atypical. 17:49 < booyah> what_if.jpg that was the reason for idea of segwit2x 17:49 < gmaxwell> doesn't make sense, since of course no one proposed such a thing. 17:49 < booyah> :) 17:51 < booyah> speaking of QC, how about NTru signatures? or them + normal secp ones. they are small.. 17:54 < gmaxwell> they're not small.. key plus signature are about the size of a winternitz hash based signature. 17:54 < gmaxwell> (about 2kb) 17:55 < gmaxwell> (also not clear which ntru scheme you mean, the earlier signature algo was broken...) 17:57 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:59 < booyah> I though they fixed it, with the exception that it shouldn't be reused too many times 18:15 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31 -!- 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