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12:45 < gleb> Did we think about private set intersection for lists of connected peers, and disconnect from peers my peer is connected to? This would make network less clustered and allow to find/disconnect spies at the protocol level.
12:46 < gleb> Perhaps this is an overkill, also challenging to make it robust against malicious peers we intersect with.
12:48 < gmaxwell> gleb: I've disscussed it before and actually went and implemented an ECC PIR (which btw, is very poorly covered in the lit like multisig schnorr has been.. e.g. the protocols aren't really active secure)
12:48 < gmaxwell> gleb: but I think ultimately its not that useful in the network as it is today because we have no sybil resistance.
12:49 < gmaxwell> gleb: so it would just be an amplifying tool for eclipse attacks.
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12:49 < gmaxwell> if people commonly had manual peering with trusted non-sybil friends, then it could intersect with those safely.
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12:55 < gleb> Eh, I'm not even surprised, for everything comes to my might you have thought about it at some point..
12:56 < gmaxwell> gleb: you're catching up.
12:56 < gmaxwell> my research on that ended up being the basis of the countersign auth protocol that sipa and I have been working on.
12:57 < gmaxwell> gleb: what I envisoned doing with it initially was just giving other developers a daemon they could run to pir intersect with me, so I could publish a banlist... then I realized people would just send me their peer lists if I asked nicely. :P
12:59 < gleb> Oh yeah, I'm aware of the countersign part, I was thinking of pushing bip150/151 stuff  forward [again], but it seems like jonas schnelli is resurrecting it already
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13:00 < gmaxwell> I'm sure it could use some more help. :)
13:02 < gleb> Perhaps I should reach out then, at least to find out what's the plan for the nearest future.
13:04 < gleb> Btw, do you envision any interest in building something like a parallel (more trustworthy) sybil resistant network with PIR? Or it would be more harmful to have such "split"
13:05 < gmaxwell> I think that might be interesting.  I think having multiple p2p networks is a good thing, because attackers would have to attack all of them.
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16:58 < bsm117532> What's your favorite MPC protocol/library and why?  (crypto-related, Paillier is nice but not that germane)
17:01 < gmaxwell> I've never seen one that was sutiable for production use. (maybe some exists that are, but I've not seen them)--  usually they're a software engineering disaster, with no comprehensive tests (or no tests at all), thoughtless layering (E.g. socket calls intermixed with big num calculations), and little to no sidechannel resistance.
17:02 < gmaxwell> (I don't hold this against them, like 99% of what I've seen was written by academics as part of their publications, and I'm thankful they published code at all... but the code is usually more or less "what was required to write a paper on the subject" and it shows.)
17:03 < gmaxwell> If someone finds something that actually looks nice from the perspective of production use, I'd love to hear about it.
17:03 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: Agreed on all that.  I'm trying to push the state of the art, because I fundamentally believe it will be part of this ecosystem in the future.
17:04 < bsm117532> I'm hopeful for amiller's work https://github.com/amiller/HoneyBadgerMPC but it's still early
17:07 < gmaxwell> Arguably the field of "what cryptosystem is best for this" isn't clear enough yet right now that its even worth the engineering effort to create something production ready.
17:07 < gmaxwell> like... by the time you finished it, there would be some newer hotter cryptosystem, and you'd need to start over, maybe only preserving some of the API and test design.
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17:10 < bsm117532> Agreed.  And I'm even confused as to how to know when a given protocol is even a candidate for being "productionalized".  The papers I've read are ridicously complex, with a bazillion assumptions and sub-protocols. I don't think I (or anyone) can reasonably evaluate whether they're secure.
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17:23 < gmaxwell> As I was mentioning for PIR before, that what I found for PIR using simple elgamal encryptions wasn't actively secure, even where it claimed to be, that actual properties it had didn't precisely map to what would be needed in production.
17:24 < gmaxwell> So I suspect it'll be a lot like we found with multisig... that there is a bunch of published and folklore techniques, which if you implement it the obvious way, ends up materially insecure, in practice.
17:30 < bsm117532> And that's what I love about this space.  Once you put real money behind it, shit becomes real, very fast. Bitcoin is advancing cryptography in a way it couldn't without it.
17:31 < gmaxwell> a little, I dunno, careful not to read too much into that. Like plenty of stuff gets real money put behind it and remains totally insecure for a long time.  It's certantly more effective at getting it fixed then not using it at all.
17:32 < gmaxwell> but production use alone isn't a magic elixer than makes things secure.
17:33 < bsm117532> A refrain I keep repeating to certain teams in charge of keys...
17:34 < gmaxwell> I think really things will be secure only if they've had conscious attention from people with the right backgrounds and perspectives, ... and thats more likely to happen if they're used for something actually useful.  But it's certantly possible for something to be a well engineered ship in a bottle, just as its not uncommon for people to run into full production use with barely working
17:34 < gmaxwell> disasters and pull it off for years (before all the money vanishes)
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18:08 < bsm117532> Re: "Like plenty of stuff gets real money put behind it and remains totally insecure for a long time" -- there's a number of people in this space interested in active attacks.  I don't think it's morally defensible and I don't want to participate, but hedge funds are mercinaries, and they're entering the game.
18:08 < bsm117532> Let's call it Iota for instance...
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19:03 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: It doesn't look like you can really monetize attacks much.
19:03 < gmaxwell> short of outright ripping people off.
19:03 < bsm117532> Shorts are available on numerous platforms like BitMex...
19:04 < gmaxwell> but like "ha ha I made your blockchain unusable for three weeks until all users abandoned it for a hardfork that works around this attack" doesn't appear to be something you can turn into profit.
19:04 < bsm117532> But good point. As financial infrastructure develops this becomes more of a possibility...
19:04 < gmaxwell> because it doesn't actually drop the price
19:04 < kanzure> sometimes it increases the price!
19:04 < gmaxwell> what kanzure said.
19:04 < kanzure> so you can win if you capture volatility
19:05 < gmaxwell> yes, a straddle that predicts volitility is probably a better trade but probably still not very good.
19:05 < gmaxwell> I'm sure we can find examples of total breaks where the price just didn't change.
19:05 < gmaxwell> Like, _maybe_ an attack combined with a concerted marketing push.
19:05 < gmaxwell> and doing things like paying exchanges to delist it.
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19:06 < bsm117532> I *hope* institutional traders are wiser. :-/
19:06 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: the problem is that for 99% of cryptocurrencies (to some extent including bitcoin) people aren't actually actively using it in commerce.. so "totally busted and insecure for a couple weeks" doesn't ruin the value because "I'll get fixed".
19:07 < gmaxwell> so we saw this with iota, for example where it's centeralized signer 'coordinator' was down for what.. weeks? (days at least).
19:07 < bsm117532> That's changing, albeit slowly.
19:07 < gmaxwell> and I don't even think that was visible on the market feeds for it.
19:07 < kanzure> another observation is how irrational the market is (note the value of garbage trash "crypto" projects)
19:08 < gmaxwell> kanzure: ehhh. If your hypothesis is that the market is irrational perhaps you should consider other alternatives.
19:08 < bsm117532> Yeah I think this is mostly driven by irrational investors who don't understand.
19:08 < kanzure> well i struggle to justify a million spinoffs
19:08 < gmaxwell> I think the market isn't irrational in investing in obviously broken stuff like iota, in fact. But rather the market is buying something different than what we're assuming they're buying.
19:08  * bsm117532 prices hype
19:09 < gmaxwell> For a lot of these things the market price isn't a "this is a useful/purposeful/secure cryptocurrency" the market price is "maybe something useful will be based off the ownership of this in the future" or other similar things.
19:09 < gmaxwell> or even "a bigger fool will buy this"
19:09 < bsm117532> Markets generally assume price is a proxy for everything else.
19:09 < gmaxwell> And history supports these sorts of theories.
19:10 < gmaxwell> so for example bcash (and esp bsv) you could look as a bet that craig wright really did create bitcoin and will eventually prove it.  (among other things)
19:11 < gmaxwell> As that sort of hedge it's radically overpriced, as far as I'm concerned but considering how many people believe it's true or at least vaguely possible, it's almost surprising how low the price is...
19:11 < kanzure> even the greater fool theory can't support a million copycats
19:11 < bsm117532> And price is a proxy for it.  Someone else did the DD, not me.
19:11 < gmaxwell> kanzure: well it can until there is enough, like how coingen largely killed the "take bitcoin relaunch with a premine and a new name"
19:12 < kanzure> coingen was killed because someone acquired it and killed it
19:12 < gmaxwell> but before coingen there was still hundreds of them.
19:12 < gmaxwell> kanzure: it served its purpose.
19:12 < gmaxwell> and yes, someone who'd been creating worthless altcoins bought it and let it die.
19:12 < bsm117532>  With larger investors, more of them will do due diligence.
19:12 < bsm117532> Because no one will risk a retirement fund on this shit.
19:13 < gmaxwell> I am not sure many people aren't doing due diligence. They're just buying something they _know_ is currently worthless.
19:14 < bsm117532> You overestimate investor's abilities...
19:14 < Varunram> I think people want to invest in 50 scams and hope 1 succeeds
19:14 < bsm117532> yes
19:14 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: I'm certantly not speaking about everyone.
19:16 < gmaxwell> There are also a lot of really unsophicated buyers that are duped by variance... they buy 50 scams, make 10x their money on one (which wasn't enough to offset the losses on the others, surely not net of taxes, but maybe it came close) and then they think they have a viable trading strategy until the ruin themselves.
19:16 < bsm117532> We're about to see the same pattern repeated with the balance sheet of hedge funds instead.
19:17 < gmaxwell> but the existence of identifable rubes is one reason why not every participant is irrational.
19:18 < bsm117532> What's a rube?
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19:20 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: a sucker
19:21 < gmaxwell> (freeking wikipedia cites "the office" like its the orgin of the term, lol no.)
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