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< nsh> so what are the BIPs for replacing the elliptic curve component of bitcoin if a break of ECDLP looks immanent/imminent? 06:15 < nsh> can someone moot this at one of the next conferences/symposia? 06:16 < nsh> don't wanna be chicken little but there is now a serious chance (in my mind at least) that this is going to be a problem that has to be faced within a few years 06:26 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:30 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:40 -!- _Sam-- [~greybits@unaffiliated/greybits] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:44 -!- _Sam-- [~greybits@unaffiliated/greybits] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:58 -!- Tralfaz [~none@178.128.106.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:05 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 07:10 -!- michaelfolkson 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#bitcoin-wizards 07:39 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has quit [Client Quit] 07:41 -!- son0p [~son0p@adsl190-28-95-138.epm.net.co] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:46 -!- michaelfolkson [~michaelfo@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- michaelfolkson [~michaelfo@146.185.56.214] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 07:47 -!- michaelfolkson [~michaelfo@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01 -!- michaelfolkson [~michaelfo@146.185.56.214] has quit [] 08:01 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 -!- michaelf_ [~michaelfo@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 -!- michaelf_ [~michaelfo@146.185.56.214] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20 < waxwing> just make sure the BIP specifies that the update should not be distributed over TLS (including 1.3) ;) 08:24 -!- m8tion [~user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-162-49.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24 -!- m8tion [~user@185.236.201.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@unaffiliated/dizzle] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:31 < real_or_random> nsh: there are no BIPs yet :) 08:32 * nsh nods, smiles 08:32 < real_or_random> it's not in the focus currently. we should work on it, at some point (tm). apparently noone has taken it serious enough to work on it. 08:33 < nsh> strong candidate replacement primitives are yet to emerge 08:33 < nsh> but the ground work of considering a transition can be started imho 08:33 < real_or_random> yes, that's another issue. see for example the NIST post-quantum competition 08:34 < nsh> right, i half watched djb and tanja's CCC presentation 08:34 < nsh> but there's movement now at least 08:34 < real_or_random> it's not clear if this will serious issue in the next years. I guess most people (including me) assume it won't 08:34 < real_or_random> but maybe better be safe than sorry 08:35 < nsh> well, attack evolves faster than defence and sometimes it evolves very rapidly through a puncture equilibrium 08:35 < nsh> and it's better to be 10 years too safe than 1 month not safe enough 08:35 < nsh> anything else i could say to elaborate would just make me look more crazy than i already do :) 08:35 < real_or_random> what would be groundwork? my impression is that people are at least aware of the issue 08:37 < nsh> decoupling addresses from pubkeys further. figuring out to what extent keyholding can be migrated to a new cryptosystem primitive 08:37 < nsh> what happens if there has to be a suspension of the network 08:38 < nsh> worst case scenarios for a reboot 08:38 < real_or_random> the simplest plan is 1) introduce a post-quantum secure signature scheme and 2) hope that people transform their coins to the new scheme 08:38 < nsh> etc. 08:40 < real_or_random> decoupling addresses from pubkeys: I assumed you're asking because you've seen sipa's tweets? have you? 08:40 < nsh> oh no i haven't 08:40 < nsh> this has been on my mind for the last few months 08:40 < nsh> for reasons i won't expand on 08:40 -!- echonaut [~echonaut@46.101.192.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41 < nsh> so in theory there's a hash step between privkey<->pubkey to address 08:41 < real_or_random> https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/1108085284862713856 08:41 < nsh> but i don't think it's the case atm that you can't derive pubkeys from most addresses from scripts 08:41 < nsh> this could be progressively softfork enforced though 08:41 < nsh> (in theory there's two hash steps, even?) 08:42 < nsh> right, so i had a look 08:42 < nsh> and it's a lot i think 08:42 < nsh> :( 08:42 < nsh> .tw 08:42 < yoleaux> 1) This question was clearly a bit underspecified, as some of the more creative responses showed. Despite that, my answer is (c) 5M-10M BTC. This includes all outputs with P2PK/raw multisig outputs, plus P2PKH outputs with known pubkeys, and P2SH/P2WSH with known scripts. https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/1107720144300572672 (@pwuille) 08:42 < real_or_random> yeah but you need the read the following tweets too 08:43 < nsh> right, thanks 08:43 < nsh> so let's just assume for sake of argument the hypothesis that by feb 29th next year there's a way to break ecdlp that will be within the reach of a nontrivial amount of player 08:43 < nsh> actors/entities 08:44 < nsh> how quickly can the network (with encouragement of keyholders) move this directly ecpubkey exposed coin to behind two hashes 08:44 < nsh> that's my thought-experiment anyway 08:45 < nsh> even a small but nonvanishing percentage of observed expropriation would have potentially devastating confidence consequences 08:45 < nsh> (but conversely would spur development of transition solutions) 08:49 < nsh> anyway i'm glad sipa picked up on the, ehm, notion 08:49 < nsh> that's very heartening to me :) 08:56 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 08:58 < andytoshi> nsh: the ecosystem is not going to move to "EC behind hashes", as sipa's analysis shows an unbelievable proportion of all EC keys have been exposed despite years of people being encouraged not to do that. and even if they did, that will not help if the timeline is 1 year because there is no way to spend those without revealing EC keys 08:58 * nsh nods 08:59 < andytoshi> if there were a "EC break in a year" situation there would be a softfork to add some giant hash-based signature followed by a softfork to freeze all EC keys, and it'd be a real shitshow 08:59 < nsh> right 08:59 < nsh> i mean this is just me throwing dates at random more of less 08:59 < andytoshi> but there is no non-shitshow alternative right now, which is why there are no BIPs 08:59 * nsh nods 09:00 < andytoshi> it might be worthwhile to write a shitshow bip :) but i certainly don't feel like doing it.. 09:00 < nsh> convince some prof to set it as a class project :) 09:01 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 09:04 < andytoshi> haha i can't even imagine the bikeshedding and conspiracy theories and insanely-wrong media coverage and personal attacks the proposer would get.. 09:05 * nsh nods 09:06 < nsh> the problem is that the possibility is undeniable and (let me volunteer to be the person who looks crazy and worthy of person attacks for a second) once the mathematics is nearly crystalised in the collective unconsciouness of humanity - ie once the 'time is ripe' for the breakthrough - then it can't be kept under wraps for very long 09:07 < nsh> the one advantage is that the bits that might self-organise into the breakthrough are split and diffracted into a whole bunch of different partial results 09:07 < andytoshi> sure, but it doesn't seem like a mathematical problem, but an engineering one, to get efficient QCs. and it would be really shocking and unprecedented if such an engineering challenge were surprise-solved 09:07 < nsh> and there isn't necessarily cross talk between the people 09:07 < nsh> oh well 09:07 < nsh> imagine it isn't 09:07 < nsh> just for hypothesis :) 09:07 < andytoshi> like, imagine a classical EC break? 09:08 < nsh> if there's somethink like a way to efficiently extend finite fields such that you have complex analyticity and way to translate back efficiently unto the unextended field 09:09 < nsh> ah it's catch-22 because i should just keep my mouth shut and everyone should just assume i have no idea what i'm rambling about 09:09 < nsh> but do things about it anyway 09:09 < nsh> the assumption that we need to solve very hard engineering problems may not be safe 09:09 < nsh> is a reasonable summary 09:14 < andytoshi> well, if there is a mathematical breakthrough and we have hours or days to react then it's game over. probably we softfork to unilaterally freeze all coins then hardfork to allow STARK-proving bip32 paths (thanks adam3us for the observation that BIP32 hardened derivation is quantum secure) or something, after multiple years of engineering work to make this possible. assuming anyone is motivated 09:14 < andytoshi> to do this 09:15 * nsh nods 09:15 < nsh> there could be hedging with a kind of sidechain peg that allows people to bail out of the secp256k1 at the drop of a hat / script precondition 09:16 < nsh> so a fork-to-PQ 09:16 < nsh> that can run alongside bitcoin and backs up the spend-authority state 09:16 < nsh> (but would have to be voluntary participation probably) 09:20 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:21 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 09:23 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@cpe-172-116-160-42.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@cpe-172-116-160-42.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:42 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- bildramer1 is now known as bildramer 09:56 < RubenSomsen> Afaik p2c is quantum secure, so taproot keys could be made STARK spendable. 10:06 < sipa> RubenSomsen: it's not :) 10:07 < sipa> oh, it is if you disable key spending, and only allow script spending 10:07 < adiabat> I think that's a nice transition though; have a taproot key which commits to a PQ hash based pubkey 10:08 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 10:08 < adiabat> everyone keeps using the EC signing, but if there's a QC that comes out, can soft-fork to disable EC spending, and everyone's already got hash based pubkeys on their outputs 10:09 < adiabat> (for very weak definitions of "everyone") 10:10 -!- khs9ne [~xxwa@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:15 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@cpc139350-aztw33-2-0-cust310.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18 < RubenSomsen> sipa: yeah I'm assuming a soft fork coin freeze to disallow key spending 10:25 < adiabat> having a PQ pubkey in your taproot address seems like a nice thing to have as a backup, and costs nothing for verifiers, and very little for wallets / signers 10:28 < RubenSomsen> adiabat: I believe you'd have to reveal it if you want to script spend in taproot, so maybe not ideal 10:34 < RubenSomsen> Maybe you can add the PQ pubkey as the final spending condition in g'root... that seems to be quantum secure at first glance 10:35 -!- m8tion_ [~user@185.236.201.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:38 -!- m8tion [~user@185.236.201.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:38 < RubenSomsen> But what I initially meant is that no special PQ pubkey would be required. The knowledge required to open the taproot commitment would be the secret that is used to spend the coins via a STARK. Ideally you'd also get the STARK to evaluate the taproot script. 10:41 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has quit [Quit: Quit] 10:46 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:15 < adiabat> RubenSomsen: for taproot keys, you can spend from then with an EC signature without revealing the script, and without revealing that there even is a script 11:16 < adiabat> so having a PQ pubkey as the whole script in a taproot key carries no additional verification cost, as long as you don't need it 11:17 < sipa> if you need a general ZKP anyway, the signature scheme can just be the preimage of a hash 11:27 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@cpc139350-aztw33-2-0-cust310.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27 < RubenSomsen> adiabat: agreed, it doesn't matter when you don't need the script 11:29 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29 < RubenSomsen> sipa: what about multisig, though? 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