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07:00 < ariard> Hi, I've read sometimes ago here on a secondary p2p stack, something likely based on PIR, does anyone have more links/pointers on this ?
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09:59 < nkohen> Are there any nice, non-interactive, proposed solutions out there for MultiSignature in the general m-of-n case that are better than just doing mCn MuSig leaves on a MAST?
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10:17 < sipa> nkohen: with interactive setup, sure
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10:29 < nkohen> could you link me to an example? much appreciated :)
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10:30 < sipa> nkohen: not so much an example, but the term you're looking for is threshold signatures
10:31 < sipa> you're asking for non-interactive, what does that mean?
10:31 < sipa> generally all efficient threshold schemes have some interaction at setup
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10:31 < sipa> and musig has interaction at signing time (but not at setup time)
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10:48 < nkohen> I guess I meant by non-interactive something equivalent to using a MAST with mCn MuSig leaves, where as long as you know everyone's public keys, then you can construct the entire transaction without interaction and the only interaction necessary to spend is m-1 of your n-1 peers telling you their partial signature
10:50 < nkohen> I see now that MuSig actually requires more interaction than just that
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10:51 < sipa> musig has 3 interaction rounds at signing time
10:51 < sipa> though there are pairing based signature schemes without interaction rounds in the same use case
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10:56 < nkohen> I guess what I'm really looking for as a scheme where spending looks like a simple, single key, spend (like MuSig) but where what is actually happening is m-of-n multisignature (i.e. if m of the n participants collaborate, they can sign for the aggregate public key)
10:57 < nkohen> And where there isn't any visible (to the chain) interaction like in graftroot
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11:02 < sipa> nkohen: without interaction at setup time that will be hard
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11:09 < nkohen> In that case do you know of any scheme with relatively little interaction during setup?
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12:01 < waxwing> huh, interesting: https://twitter.com/oleganza/status/1125836176764690432
12:05 < nsh> .tw
12:05 < yoleaux> 1. Plain discrete logs 2. Multiple parties 3. Non-interactive proving Choose two. (@oleganza)
12:06 < nsh> pretty deep for a parody account :)
12:07 < waxwing> nsh, why parody account?
12:07 < sipa> oleganza is a pretty real person
12:07 < waxwing> oh :)
12:07 < waxwing> see description
12:08 < sipa> i think that may be a joke
12:08 < gmaxwell> nkohen: your question is underspecified.  What the heck does "relatively little interaction"? mean?   m-of-n can be done with two rounds in setup.
12:09 < gmaxwell> nkohen: You musig adjust the keys then do a verifyable secret sharing.
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12:30 < nkohen> gmaxwell: Is there a write-up someplace that process in detail?
12:31 < sipa> nkohen: papers :)
12:32 < sipa> (and there is a pretty big difference between "this is easy in theory, this paper shows it!" and "there is a well-reviewed production ready library that makes this kind of thing safe to do")
12:33 < nkohen> My favorite :) I'm not seeing threshold signatures described in the original MuSig paper, is there a nice one you can think of?
12:37 < gmaxwell> No writeup is going to do much towards helping to produce a safely usable implementation though.
12:39 < nkohen> Noted, I'll leave implementation to the experts :)
12:42 < gmaxwell> in any case if  {A, B, C} are 2of3 secret shares of key K, then if you sign with A and B and then interpolate the signatures exactly as you would interpolate A,B to get K, then you get a signature with K.
12:43 < gmaxwell> so really the thing to read about is secret sharing, and then "now do the same thing but with signatures".
12:43 < gmaxwell> The verifyable part is just needed at setup time so that a trouble maker can't jam the process and make themselves necessary to the signing.
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12:45 < ghost43> say I have n xpubs and want to create an n-of-n multisig HD wallet. can I use musig and taproot to spend my UTXOs in p2pk-like spends? can I restore this wallet just from the n xpubs (and a synced full node). skimming the paper, it seems the random-gen part is after the aggregate pubkey generation (which is crucial as otherwise you would need additional state to find your UTXOs; could not just restore from xpubs)
12:46 < sipa> ghost43: yes
12:46 < sipa> the only difference is that the signing process is more complicated (you need interaction rounds between the n signers)
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12:46 < ghost43> yes, I got that part
12:46 < sipa> but on chain you end up with something that looks like just a pubkey in the sPK, and a signature in the spend
12:46 < nkohen> gmaxwell: thanks!
12:47 < ghost43> great! very cool. for some reason I thought the aggregate pubkey would be random
12:47 < sipa> ghost43: n-of-n MuSig and Taproot are all non-interactive at setup time
12:48 < nickler> nkohen: there's a writeup of musig based threshold signatures at https://github.com/ElementsProject/secp256k1-zkp/blob/d778a85415af89a4cf371b7e0d6b1b8dba94683b/src/modules/thresholdsig/threshold.md There's also an example in PR 46
12:48 < sipa> if you want k-of-n using threshold schemes, this is no longer true (but if you use a merkle tree where every leaf is a k-of-k MuSig combination it still works0
12:50 < Chris_Stewart_5> Interesting, so you enumerate all possible valid spends in the tree at construction time?
12:51 < sipa> yes
12:51 < gmaxwell> it's not the most efficient construction, but it is accountable.
12:52 < Chris_Stewart_5> I guess the next logical question is consensus rule proposals for limiting that... but maybe it is a bit early in the day to bikeshed ;)
12:52 < gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: huh? for limiting it??!
12:52 < sipa> why do you need to limit it?
12:52 < sipa> it's expensive on the signer's part
12:52 < sipa> validation is trivial
12:52 < Chris_Stewart_5> ah -- because we are aggregating everything?
12:53 < sipa> at validation time you see a couple hashes for a merkle branch, and a key, and a signature to check against the key
12:53 < gmaxwell> no because hash trees have log() verification costs.
12:53 < gmaxwell> so even a tree with a billion leaves is only 30 hashes.
12:54 < Chris_Stewart_5> yes, i guess i was envisioning something similar to OP_CHECKMULTISIG currently where there is that linear scaling, but if all of this is taken care of during construction that isnt a problem
12:54 < sipa> right
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12:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> ugh, I was going to try avoiding getting distracted by reading your BIP sipa but I just can't resist now! Be back in a few hours :-)
12:57 < sipa> haha
12:57 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: i did a talk a long time ago on using merkle trees of keys for signatures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg
12:58 < sipa> note that this was before MuSig, and some things in that talk may be incorrect :)
13:00 < Chris_Stewart_5> nkohen: ^
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14:42 < nsh> related to weakening interaction requirements: https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/1094.pdf
14:42 < nsh> 'We introduce a new form of encryption that we namematchmaking  encryption(ME).Using ME, sender S and receiver R (each with its own attributes) can both specify policiesthe  other  party  must  satisfy  in  order  for  the  message  to  be  revealed.   The  main  securityguarantee is that of privacy-preserving policy matching: During decryption nothing is leakedbeyond the fact that a match occurred/did not occur.'
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14:42 < nsh> via: https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2019/05/07/handshake-style-encryption/
14:42 < nsh> .title
14:42 < yoleaux> Cryptographic breakthrough allows using handshake-style encryption for time-delayed communications - Help Net Security
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14:43 < nsh> 'Crucially, matchmaking encryption does away with the need for real-time interactions, allowing messages to be sent on a “dead drop” basis and read at a later date.'
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14:43 < nsh> (unclear as yet whether this can be leveraged directly to ameliorate interaction requirements for MAST/Taproot/MuSig applications)
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15:35 < real_or_random> paper intro: "In ME, a trusted authority generates encryption and decryption keys associated, respectively, to attributes of the sender
15:35 < real_or_random> and the receiver."
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16:54 < gmaxwell> https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6309656/178/kleiman-v-wright/
16:54 < gmaxwell> fraudster wright's court filing listing "his addresses"-- the court was unimpressed.
16:54 < gmaxwell> I know exactly what the redacted list contains. Maybe someone else wants to try solving it as a puzzle? :P
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17:10 < andytoshi> sounds like the premise of an encyclopedia brown mystery
17:16 < waxwing> complete guess but maybe you matched the lengths of the redacted bits to the length of addresses for the first blocks as displayed on block explorers (although iirc those addresses are bogus because they were p2pk outputs)
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17:18 < gmaxwell> waxwing: winner winner chicken dinner
17:18 < gmaxwell> The text says esentially 'wright mined a lot of blocks he doesn't even know which ones. However, he knows he mined [redacted] blocks whos addresses can be looked up.  The addresses mentioned above are X'    then I saw that there were 70 addresses listed.  70 is much shorter than the first redaction.
17:20 < gmaxwell> But "earliest 70" would be about right
17:20 < gmaxwell> interestingly the list does not include the address for block 0
17:20 < gmaxwell> but leaving that off, the shape when rendered with a times new roman lookalike is the same.
17:22 < waxwing> the redaction part is just for theatre though. well anyway ruminating on that aspect, may be reasonably considered completely off topic :)
17:24 < gmaxwell> previously unremarked advantage of BC1 addresses: if printed with a monospace font, they don't leak data when redacted.
17:25 < sipa> haha
17:25 < sipa> that's true for base58 as well?
17:25 < gmaxwell> sipa: no 1x addresses are variable length.
17:25 < sipa> (uppercase and lowercase are same width on monospace fonts)
17:25 < gmaxwell> wright's list would still have been identifyable in a monospace font.
17:26 < sipa> ah, you mean the occasional 33-character address?
17:26 < gmaxwell> as blocks 11, 53, and 65 have shorter addresses.
17:26 < gmaxwell> yes.
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17:29 < gmaxwell> just the 33/34 difference is 0.12565805017256743 bits per line leaked.
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18:00 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: is it the same list as before? lol
18:00 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: or was my awesome prediction correct!
18:02 < midnightmagic> oh. that's a little list.
18:02 < midnightmagic> Boooooooooo!
18:05 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Aw, that means he's claiming |}ruid's blocks
18:05  * midnightmagic sees channel
18:05 < midnightmagic> woops
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22:17 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: what do you think about having large Bitcoin holders reveal old private keys as a way of honest signalling their commitment to economic finalization of a block.
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--- Log closed Wed May 08 00:00:06 2019