--- Log opened Thu May 23 00:00:20 2019 00:04 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:751c:6a88:bfd1:9d52] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:11 -!- davterra [~tralfaz@178.128.106.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- adam3us [~adam3us@unaffiliated/adam3us] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:26 -!- adam3us [~adam3us@unaffiliated/adam3us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:28 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:34 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:06 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:00 -!- sankarshan1 [~sankarsha@185.178.49.150] has quit [] 02:03 -!- newz2000 [~newz2000@185.204.1.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:46 -!- whitez00 [whitez00@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/whitez00] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:54 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:03 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:46 < gmaxwell> does someone have an index of accumulator data structures? 03:48 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:50 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-midqjhdtdxxxpojh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:55 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 03:58 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:02 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:03 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:04 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:08 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:09 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1] 04:47 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:53 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00 -!- newz2000 [~newz2000@185.204.1.185] has quit [] 05:04 -!- csslayer1 [~csslayer@185.5.172.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:07 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:24 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:45 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:53 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 06:32 -!- davterra [~tralfaz@178.128.106.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:33 -!- davterra [~tralfaz@178.128.106.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:49 -!- votesmith [~votesmith@237.ip-217-182-75.eu] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:54 -!- designwish [~designwis@51.ip-51-68-136.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 06:56 -!- votesmith [~votesmith@237.ip-217-182-75.eu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57 -!- designwish [~designwis@51.ip-51-68-136.eu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.4] 07:00 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.22.134.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:00 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.22.134.171] has quit [Changing host] 07:00 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-73-92-181-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 07:06 < kanzure> gmaxwell: not quite what you asked for, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/cryptography/accumulators/ 07:15 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-73-92-181-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:18 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@62.60.61.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:24 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@n218103251046.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has quit [Changing host] 07:34 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-73-92-181-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 07:52 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-73-92-181-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56 < nothingmuch> fwiw, if i'm not mistaken libswift/ppsp is prior art for history trees, also dating back to 2009 at least https://github.com/gritzko/swift/blob/10fa06b998e30051431bd577ae36757cce7be200/hashtree.cpp#L62-L80 07:56 < nothingmuch> orig svn repo for p2p-next is gone, but i suspect this was co-discovered by many people around that time 07:56 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:57 < nothingmuch> and though i couldn't confirm right now, work on libswift related project dates back to shortly after bittorrent, with the express goal of being able to stream content in real time while still using content addressing for the individual chunks 07:57 < nothingmuch> i have 2006 in my head but that's likely confabulation on my part 08:00 -!- csslayer1 [~csslayer@185.5.172.148] has quit [] 08:02 < nothingmuch> i'm seeing mentions of p2p-next doing p2p video streaming demos in 2008, but not seeing any mention of Merlke trees 08:03 < nothingmuch> s/(?<=co)-(?=discovered)/ncurrently / 08:06 -!- glidenote1 [~glidenote@89.238.178.75] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:12 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 < nothingmuch> hmm, looking at old Tribler code, which was apparently the basis for that demo (https://torrentfreak.com/p2p-next-introduces-live-bittorrent-streaming-080718/), i'm not sure if it already included the concept of a root being over a sequence of <= log2(chunks) peaks 08:27 < nothingmuch> gotta stop for now, but i will revisit this hopefully later today, and post sources to zips#220 08:51 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 08:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:56 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@62.60.61.161] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 09:05 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05 < instagibbs_> the name MMR is real innovation :) 09:06 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:07 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- sfhi [~sfhi@178.255.154.107] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:30 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- siom [~siom@165.84.231.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:46 < jb55> it's definitely catchier than history trees 09:48 < jb55> did prior art have the opcode construction at each node, I thought that was neat 09:59 < tromp> does anyone happen to know how large a BulletProof rangeproof is when optimized for a 48 bit range rather than 64 bits? 10:05 -!- sfhi [~sfhi@178.255.154.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07 < andytoshi> IIRC you add 2 scalars for every 1 bit in your range .... so you save 2 points but gain two scalars, so the same size 10:07 < andytoshi> but afaik nobody has written code for this or even written down the details of how to do it, and (almost) every idea we tried was broken 10:07 < instagibbs_> https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/550 10:08 < instagibbs_> "Efficient and general-purpose zkSNARKs without trusted setup" 10:13 < tromp> thx, andytoshi. so perhaps it only helps with being able to stuff more auxiliary information into the BP? 10:13 < andytoshi> tromp: hah maaaybe, i'd take 50/50 odds you get some aux information into the extra exposed scalars 10:14 < andytoshi> instagibbs_: holy shit 10:15 < andytoshi> tromp: but it may be that these extra scalars are polynomials of multiple pieces of secret data, so that adding/extracting information would require some pretty serious algebra (if it's generally possible at all) 10:17 < tromp> instagibbs_ i wonder if by standard crypto hardness assumptions they mean ECDLP 10:17 < sarang> andytoshi: I tried to work out the final generator exponent pattern for arbitrary-length input too, and it was unsuccessful :( 10:17 < instagibbs_> tromp, hoping intensifies? 10:17 < sarang> (it's straightforward if the verifier does all the rounds, but inefficient) 10:18 < instagibbs_> tromp, here's to hoping(bouncer acting up, hopefully this isn't spammed) 10:18 < andytoshi> tromp: i think they do, see the discussion section at the end 10:18 < andytoshi> where they talk about "well it's not PQ secure because we use DL everywhere, but really it's just in this polynomial commitment thing, see this other paper that does it in a PQ way" 10:19 < andytoshi> and "polynomial commitment" sounds like ordinary pedersen commitments, not pairings or anything exotic 10:20 < instagibbs_> yeah, the QC version also doesn't get sublinear verifier sadly, wonder how bad it is 10:20 < instagibbs_> Future Work(TM) 10:44 < tromp> my bigger hope is still that QC runs into an insurmountable barrier:-) 10:47 < sipa> trading exponential runtime for exponential engineering time :) 10:51 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host9-216-static.18-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:56 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host9-216-static.18-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@185.210.217.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 < jb55> reading a quantum information textbook was enough to convince me its insurmountable for at least a little while longer 11:00 -!- glidenote1 [~glidenote@89.238.178.75] has quit [] 11:00 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpfijvtdfqjltynh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:19 -!- nirik-fre [~nirik-fre@84.39.117.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 < nothingmuch> jb55: opcode construction at each node? you mean how every append derives a new root w/ log2(n)/2 additional hashing operations on avg? 11:51 -!- gmaxwell [gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:51 -!- gmaxwell [gmaxwell@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- gmaxwell is now known as Guest58856 11:55 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:09 < suraeNoether> jb55 which textbook? 12:14 -!- sfhi [~sfhi@178.255.154.107] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:16 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@82-132-246-32.dab.02.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@82-132-246-32.dab.02.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@185.210.217.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:24 -!- Guest58856 [gmaxwell@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has quit [Changing host] 12:24 -!- Guest58856 [gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:27 -!- brianhoffman [~brianhoff@pool-72-83-155-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:28 -!- Guest58856 is now known as gmaxwell 12:32 < nsh> (which part of the textbook tells you when the next breakthrough will be? :P) 12:43 -!- sfhi2 [~sfhi@91-152-137-204.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:46 -!- sfhi [~sfhi@178.255.154.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:47 < jb55> suraeNoether nsh: I just got the impression that we barely know anything, we only have a few algorithms. It seems heavy in the research stage. The idea of converting these ideas on paper into working solutions looks to be a huge undertaking. 12:50 < jb55> one thing that always bothered me was how many of the algorithm abstract over the circuit complexity of the function its acting on. maybe that's not important but I had the impression it could have large practical implications wrt. decoherence, etc. still pretty new to this stuff though so perhaps its solvable with enough error correction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 12:52 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@185.210.217.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53 * nsh nods 12:58 < jb55> suraeNoether: I've been reading quantum computer science my Mermin, Chuang & Nielsen, and Preskill's course which all have good intro to this stuff 12:59 < jb55> nothingmuch: I'm talking about ots mmr's specifically where nodes can append, prepend, hash, etc which are all different ops that you can apply which are used for merging trees 13:04 < suraeNoether> jb55: thanks for the title and authors. always looking for more reading material 13:04 < jb55> yeah it makes for some nice light reading 13:11 -!- jtimon [~quassel@181.61.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@148.252.239.114] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:21 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@148.252.239.114] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 13:23 -!- bitcoin-wizards2 [907a28cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.122.40.203] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- bitcoin-wizards2 [907a28cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.122.40.203] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: yeah, I was aware they were compressible at that layer. In fact -- you can literally just broadcast the leaf nodes of the entire tree and deterministically construct the nodes upwards :) 13:28 < jeremyrubin> So in theory there's no extra space cost long term, you could just keep note of where to re-derive it from later 13:28 < jeremyrubin> The only issue is the witness space 13:31 < jeremyrubin> half kidding: segregated taproot programs to increase witness space 13:34 < gmaxwell> making the p2p upgrade for that really sucks. 13:36 < jeremyrubin> it might be a good one-time cost; generalizing a segwit space per version such that the per-version space is guaranteed to not have lower versions 13:36 < jeremyrubin> But would definitely slow down deployment so hence half-kidding 13:46 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:49 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@185.210.217.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00 -!- nirik-fre [~nirik-fre@84.39.117.57] has quit [] 14:00 < gmaxwell> it can't really be a onetime cost unfortunately, because you can't safely relay stuff you can't validate, and so any of these p2p changes have to handle the problem of making sure the upgraded network isn't partitioned. 14:00 < gmaxwell> For segwit this was a big PITA that was partially handled manually. 14:04 < nothingmuch> jb55: ah, yes, afaik that's completely novel for OTS, seemed to me like that precedence disagreement is only about the use of a function from an integer n to binary trees of size n, so that a sequence of merkle roots for an append only stream can be computed cheaply 14:26 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-73-92-181-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 14:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:42 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 14:43 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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