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11:04 < riclas> hey guys, anyone can point me to discussion on these ideas: https://www.ndss-symposium.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ndss2019_09-2_Leung_paper.pdf
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11:04 < riclas> it's basically checkpointing and sharding. and i'm not sure how the usual critiques apply here
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11:23 < kanzure> "A formal treatment of deterministic wallets" https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/698.pdf
11:29 < kanzure> "A blockchain-assisted hash-based signature scheme" https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/672.pdf
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11:31 < kanzure> "A server-assisted hash-based signature scheme" https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/671.pdf
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11:34 < riclas> same thing by 3 different groups at the same university? xD
11:37 < riclas> ah i jumped the gun. different things. cool
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12:01 < adiabat> riclas: one sortof interesting thing about the vault paper, and I guess proof of stake in general:
12:02 < adiabat> there's no security downgrade by making what in bitcoin is the SPV assumption
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12:02 < adiabat> since the security definition is that 2/3 of signers are honest, and honest nodes only sign off on correct blocks, there's no reason to verify signatures yourself
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12:03 < adiabat> the idea of a block with a valid proof of work that is otherwise invalid doesn't apply there, so might as well really leverage the SPV assumption and get as much as you can from it
12:05 < adiabat> .. they've still got a pretty serious error though on page 2
12:05 < adiabat> " with the same 500 million transactions, Ethereum and Bitcoin would require 5 GB and 143 GB respectively"
12:06 < adiabat> I pointed out to Derek that this is way off, and comparing apples to oranges (SPV in ethereum vs full validation in bitcoin)
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12:26 < riclas> yeah those numbers didn't add up
12:28 < riclas> and sure, you basically get spv on the base layer
12:31 < riclas> the checkpoint system seems to be generic, and without the drawbacks of utxo checkpoints
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12:32 < riclas> the sharding part always gets me thinking, there will probably be some kind of chain attack, where someone trusted a bad node and the following ones are screwed because they trust the trusted person
12:33 < adiabat> there's no additional trust I guess, since you're already trusting the signers to be honest, and have no recourse if they're not
12:34 < riclas> ah you're right. we are assuming the signers were honest
12:34 < adiabat> the "Bootstrap Security" part of table 1 bugs me; as if they have a "cryptographic" guarantee while bitcoin has a "probabilistic" one
12:34 < instagibbs> adiabat, "just delete their deposit and move on"
12:35 < adiabat> instagibbs: I think that's ethereum / slasher?  This one is guaranteed no-forks-ever
12:35 < instagibbs> 95% sure it meant in the case that slasher didn't even work either, but perhaps too snarky
12:37 < adiabat> yeah, at least the ethereum world tries to have backup plans for things going wrong; in algorand / vault it's just "2/3rds always honest"
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12:38 < riclas> you can't check anything and detect a problem
12:38 < riclas> the thing is: these ideas seem valid and fine, assuming algorand is a good base
12:38 < adiabat> there are some problems you can detect, but there's nothing you can do other than halt if you detect them
12:38 < riclas> i couldn't find issues with these ideas.
12:39 < riclas> what i find seems always related to base assumptions
12:39 < adiabat> yeah I think it's true that if you're already making the proof of stake assumtions, this is a good optimization
12:40 < adiabat> similarly algorand seems pretty good if you're OK with the assumtions, which seem necessary for all proof of stake systems
12:40 < adiabat> *assumptions
12:40 < adiabat> there does seem to be some assumptions swept under the rug though, like selling old keys
12:43 < riclas> you mean an honest node becoming dishonest?
12:43 < riclas> for any reason, not just selling keys.
12:44 < instagibbs> incentives seem to always be non-0 to not delete, then possibly sell, the keys
12:48 < riclas> yeah, but that's the generic pos problem.
12:48 < adiabat> I guess the problem is you can become a dishonest node after you stop being a node
12:49 < adiabat> I guess we'll see in practice how much of an issue it is.  Maybe it won't be
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13:23 < elichai2> Hi, I'm at chaincode and we're trying to make a double spend session at the residency. until now I've tried using OP_RETURN, bad addresses(1dice, 1lucky etc.) and vladimir's script (bitcoin_submittx) and i can't make it work
13:24 < elichai2> I'm looking for other ideas on how to make a successful double spend
13:25 < duqd> ask at bitdevs in like 2 hours
13:25 < duqd> lul
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13:29 < adiabat> elichai2: define double spend?  Like a reorg, where a tx gets confirmed and then reorged out?
13:29 < elichai2> 0conf rbf without nSequence
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13:30 < adiabat> RBF without flagging RBF? Harder I guess; might be possible by directly connecting to some miners, but yeah you'd have to find non standard nodes
13:34 < elichai2> exactly. I don't want to signal
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13:41 < aj> elichai2: transmit incompatible txes to two different nodes at the same time?
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