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12:23 < elichai2> in taproot the order of the scripts isn't deterministic, right?  so in order to reconstruct a taproot address you need to have all the leafs and the right order of them
12:25 < sipa> not the exact same order, but you do need a compatible structure
12:26 < sipa> (because the two branches are sorted before hashes in the merkle nodes, certain swaps don't affect the final hash)
12:26 < sipa> also not all leaves need to be at the same height
12:28 < elichai2> yeah, so we order 2 branches when we're hashing but in order to "import" a taproot address you need to give it an exact tree of scripts
12:29 < elichai2> I'm trying to figure out if there's a nicer way to represent the whole taproot tree as a wallet
12:32 < sipa> we'll find some way to encode it in a descriptor
12:32 < aj> (you don't need to have all the leafs, you could just have your leaf and the merkle path)
12:33 < sipa> that's also true
12:33 < elichai2> aj: the problem with that is that this means you trust the source of the address
12:33 < sipa> though in order to reason about the possibilities an address offers, you'll likely want to see the whole thing
12:33 < elichai2> outside of PSBT you shouldn't pass only a path
12:34 < elichai2> exactly
12:34 < sipa> elichai2: are you familiar with the output descriptor language bitcoin core uses?
12:35 < sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/descriptors.md
12:35 < elichai2> yeah
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12:35 < ltholt2580> Hey can someone answer a question about the nature of UTXO transfers for me?
12:36 < elichai2> this needs to be figured out there too, does descriptors have anything to do with PSBT?
12:37 < sipa> elichai2: eh yes and no
12:37 < sipa> psbt is more machine readable, redundant, and flexible
12:38 < sipa> it's "this hash comes from this script, this pubkey has this derivation path, ..."
12:38 < sipa> descriptors are engineer-readable, concise, and put all information in a single string
12:39 < sipa> the difference is that descriptors can be implementation specific
12:39 < sipa> you don't necessarily need all participants in a contract to all use descriptors
12:39 < elichai2> and they're more like explanatory pointers, right? (like they would contain the redeemScript but not the scriptPubKey)
12:39 < sipa> hmm?
12:40 < sipa> descriptors don't contain any script, they describe them :)
12:40 < sipa> oh you mean psbt? yeah, the spk is in the utxo data anyway
12:40 < elichai2> yeah but they describe just the redeemScript right? not the script in the output
12:41 < sipa> yes they do
12:41 < sipa> descriptors are literally a language to describe scriptPubKeys :)
12:41 < elichai2> psbt should contain everything so that the signer can sign *and know* what he signs on
12:42 < sipa> right
12:42 < elichai2> but a p2sh multi descriptors will look like `sh(multi(2, KEY, KEY, KEY))` it won't have "HASH160 xxx"
12:42 < sipa> right
12:43 < sipa> but the sh function implies a scriptPubKey with a HASH160 opcode
12:43 < sipa> so the information is there
12:44 < elichai2> ha, right, so if the scriptPubKey contains something weird it will be represented as `raw`?
12:44 < sipa> uh, yes
12:44 < sipa> but that won't be a functionally complete descriptor
12:45 < sipa> and raw is also only usable at the top level
12:45 < elichai2> so the psbt one should be easier to solve, because you basically need just 1 string which is the taproot path and the script at that leaf, you do not need to encode the whole tree
12:45 < elichai2> thanks :) makes sense
12:46 < sipa> for psbt taproot i think we'll just have records "this point is derived from this inner key + this merkle path + this script / leaf version"
12:46 < sipa> and probably also musig records "this key is derived from this list of constituent keys"
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12:47 < sipa> (and then for those constituent keys the derivation path etc may be specified)
12:48 < elichai2> right. and you also need to standardize the ordering of the keys for the coeffiecient for that. but that's easy
12:48 < sipa> hmm?
12:48 < elichai2> (you can just assume lexographic ordering)
12:48 < sipa> oh for musig, yeah
12:48 < elichai2> yeah
12:48 < sipa> order specified order; unsure
12:48 < sipa> you can see musig as operating on a list of keys in which order matters
12:49 < sipa> i think that's easier actually
12:49 < sipa> but it's conceptually simpler to make it work on a (multi)set of keys
12:49 < elichai2> oh you're saying that you should just keep the keys always ordered even in the psbt etc.
12:49 < ltholt2580> hey for a transaction requiring the transfer of multiple UTXOs to a wallet, are the UTXOs concatenated in transit to the destination wallet or kept separate? When they arrive, is each UTXO still attached to an individual private key?
12:49 < elichai2> that will make it more versatile
12:50 < sipa> elichai2: depends how we choose to standardize musig for use in bitcoin itself
12:50 < elichai2> ltholt2580: are you talking about any specific wallet?
12:50 < sipa> ltholt2580: your question doesn't really make sense
12:51 < ltholt2580> nope nothing specific
12:51 < ltholt2580> why doesnt it make sense?
12:51 < sipa> utxos don't have private keys
12:51 < sipa> they're just coins
12:51 < elichai2> sipa: I think it's mostly standardized in your paper but yeah there are some small details (i.e.  if you tag the hash or use special ordering)
12:52 < ltholt2580> UTXO ownership is through association to a key pair no?
12:52 < elichai2> ltholt2580: every UTXO can have his own key, or even multiple keys(multi sig), or whatever script you wrote
12:52 < sipa> ltholt2580: probably better to read up on bitcoin transaction basics on bitcoin.org, or ask questions on bitcoin.stackexchange.com
12:52 < ltholt2580> I've been doing as much, but I can't find an answer for this
12:52 < sipa> ltholt2580: yeah, authentication for spending is done through the script system; every utxo has an associated locking script (called the scriptPubKey)
12:53 < sipa> to use coins, you provide inputs that satisfy the locking script for the coin you want to use
12:54 < sipa> and in transit, a transaction is a transaction, with one or more outputs
12:54 < sipa> they don't become separate things ever
12:54 < sipa> but the outputs can be spent independently
12:57 < ltholt2580> So if I have 5 bitcoins across 3 UTXOs, and I want to send 3 bitcoins, my wallet will transfer ownership of two of the UTXOs and create a change adress for whatever overflow there is. The two UTXOs that are being transferred, are they going to end up associated with a single private key from the payee, or will each UTXO be associated to a different
12:57 < ltholt2580>  payee private key?
12:59 < sipa> the payee doesn't care about what your utxos were that you needed to fund the transaction
12:59 < sipa> only about the utxos you're creating that are assigned to him
13:01 < ltholt2580> so im concatenating my UTXOs into one UTXO, which is then transferred to the payee?
13:02 < sipa> a transaction consumes 1 or more UTXO, and creates 1 or more UTXO
13:02 < sipa> the difference in value between the inputs and the outputs is the fee
13:02 < sipa> there is no distinct "concatenation" or "splitting" or "transferring"
13:03 < sipa> a tx just consumes UTXOs (by proving they have the necessary conditions to spend, typically using ECDSA signatures), and creating new UTXOs assigned to arbitrary other (or the same) conditions
13:05 < ltholt2580> when the transaction creates more than one UTXO for a single payee, are all the UTXOs signed for with the same private key?
13:05 < sipa> you don't sign outputs, you sign transactions
13:06 < sipa> and you sign the transaction independently for each input that participates
13:06 < sipa> if you have two UTXOs A and B, with their respective keys
13:06 < sipa> and you create 3 new UTXOs, with keys C,D,E
13:07 < sipa> then the transaction will contain 2 signatures (one with A, one with B), and both signature (conceptually) sign the entire message (which contains references to the two UTXOs being spent, and the 3 UTXOs being created)
13:13 < sipa> the signature essentially conveys "I, owner of private key corresponding to A, approve of the spending of UTXOs A and B in order to create new UTXOs with values x, y, z, with respective locking scripts C, D, E". And B signs a similar message
13:13 < sipa> if both signatures are not valid, the transaction is invalid and no transfer occurs at all
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13:25 < ltholt2580> so are multiple UTXOs sent in a single transaction, or is each one effectively sent in a separate transaction?
13:26 < sipa> that's up to the author of the tx
13:26 < sipa> a single transaction consumes 1 or more utxo, and creates 1 or more utxo
13:26 < sipa> that's all
13:26 < ltholt2580> for a basic transaction
13:26 < ltholt2580> pay to pubkey hash
13:27 < sipa> this has nothing to do with that
13:27 < sipa> p2pkh is a type of output
13:27 < sipa> not a type of transaction
13:28 < sipa> (there are no types of transactions really, it's just things that consume and create utxos)
13:28 < sipa> a business which likes to minimize their fees will likely perform multiple payments in one transaction (called batching)
13:29 < sipa> consumer wallets will generally just let you create a single payment per tx (but that may still mean more than 1 output, due to change)
13:30 < ltholt2580> so when you say that a single trnascation creates 1 or more UTXO, do you mean the UTXO representing the BTC that was signed off to the payee and the UTXO that represents the change that needs to be created?
13:31 < sipa> say i have 3 UTXOs, each of 0.1 BTC
13:31 < sipa> on 3 distinct addresses (so 3 distinct keys necessary to sign)
13:31 < sipa> and i want to pay you 0.25 BTC
13:32 < sipa> then my wallet will create 1 single transaction with 3 inputs (each referring to a specific 0.1 BTC utxo) and 2 outputs (one 0.25 BTC one to you, and one 0.05 BTC to a different address of myself0
13:32 < sipa> 2 UTXOs are createed by this tx; one owned by you, one owned by me
13:32 < sipa> this transaction contains 3 signatures, all of which sign the entire thing
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13:34 < ltholt2580> alright, now I have the answers I was lookin for
13:34 < ltholt2580> thanks a bunch man this really helped
13:34 < sipa> if you more more specific questions, please go to https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com
13:35 < sipa> yw
13:35 < ltholt2580> oh wait one last thing, that UTXO that I own after that transaction, is it assigned to a private key I already have?
13:35 < sipa> your wallet creates it itself
13:35 < ltholt2580> so the UTXO gets a new private key and public key?
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13:35 < sipa> it would be pretty stupid software if it would send it to a key that does not correspond to a key you already have
13:36 < sipa> as you wouldn't be able to use it otherwise
13:36 < sipa> usually wallets generate new keys on the fly all the time for this
13:36 < sipa> in a deterministic fashion, so that a recovery from backup with generate the same keys
13:36 < sipa> *will generate
13:37 < ltholt2580> I'm not talking about the change UTXO here, i mean that as the recipient, the UTXO created by the transaction for me is now associated with th eprivate key of my address in the transaction?
13:38 < sipa> so the steps usually are:
13:38 < sipa> 1) recipient creates a new key
13:38 < sipa> 2) recipient computes address for that new key
13:38 < sipa> 3) recipient gives that address to the sender
13:38 < sipa> 4) sender constructs a transaction to that address (and to change for himself)
13:39 < sipa> 5) sender broadcasts transaction to the network, so that the recipient and miners can see it, who will include it in a block
13:40 < sipa> what address things are sent to is decided by the receiver, not the sender
13:40 < sipa> so if the receiver gives out the same address for multiple payments, there will be multiple UTXOs to that same address (though this is generally discouraged practice for privacy reasons)
13:40 < ltholt2580> does the receiver HAVE to create a new key?
13:41 < ltholt2580> ^nvm
13:41 < ltholt2580> so if there's multiple UTXOs to that same address, they're all attached to the same private key
13:41 < sipa> that's a way of looking at it, yes
13:42 < sipa> but it's not like utxos are indexed or adressed by their key
13:42 < sipa> they're just utxos that happen to be unlockable with the same key
13:42 < ltholt2580> so then you could send multiple UTXOs by signing with the same key?
13:43 < sipa> yes, but you'd still need independent signatures for each
13:43 < sipa> because transactions just list "these are UTXOs i'm spending, and here is a signature for each"
13:43 < ltholt2580> now I get it
13:44 < ltholt2580> this seriously has been majorly helpful man, thanks again
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