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10:23 < CubicEarth> Regarding quantum vulnerabilities in Bitcoin, if ECDSA is not secure, my understanding is that there is a risk where a key can be broken between when a tx is published and before it is confirmed in a block
10:24 < sipa> yes, depending on how fast this hypothetical machine works
10:25 < CubicEarth> wouldn't a solution be a rule that first a hash of the transaction needs to published, and "confirmed" in a block, and then after, the tx itself can be safely broadcast?
10:26 < sipa> no, because that just moves the problem to confirming the tx itself
10:28 < CubicEarth> The rule would be that the only way any transaction is accepted as valid is if a hash of that tx had already been included in a block...
10:29 < CubicEarth> so the quantum attacker couldn't redirect the funds... or at least a large time window could be enforced before they could
10:32 < sipa> miners can see the real tx which reveals the pubkey, censor it, and in the mean time include a tx commitment to a double spend that sends the money to themselves
10:33 < sipa> and when that double spend commitment is sufficiently buried, steal the coins
10:35 < CubicEarth> agreed, it wouldn't not be secure against miners censoring. although with a long time windows (100 blocks?), it should be long enough to publicly expose / shame the miners and their cartelish ways
10:37 < sipa> there are also other issues with this; how do you pay for including a tx precommitment in the chain?
10:38 < sipa> as you can't use a transaction to do so
10:38 < sipa> and you can't rely on tx precommitments to be unique for a given output, as you don't know if they're even valid
10:39 < CubicEarth> payments - yes, that's an issue
10:40 < CubicEarth> why would they need to be unique or valid? I could submit many... but at least on them would need to match the tx I finally broadcast
10:40 < sipa> sure, but you'd need to pay for all of them
10:41 < sipa> my point is you can't skip paying for them (if you knew there was going to be only one per output, you could make them free instead, but because you don't know if they're valid, there can be many and you need to pay for them or you have a DoS sink)
10:41 < sipa> also, don't forget that right now around 5-6 M BTC are stored in outputs with known pubkeys
10:42 < sipa> and probably even more in outputs that private parties know the pubkeys of (due to xpubs being shared, wallet services, things entered in block explorers, revealed as part of other protocols like lightning, ...)
10:44 < CubicEarth> are the 5-6 M from before SHA265 was put in the address path? Or address reuse??!
10:44 < sipa> P2PK outputs, bare multisig outputs, address reuse
10:45 < sipa> also some of it is from spending coins on fork chains
10:45 < CubicEarth> wow
10:45 < sipa> it doesn't really matter
10:45 < sipa> everything in the bitcoin ecosystem already relies on treating public keys as public
10:46 < sipa> even without address reuse or P2PK this would be an issue; just less blatantly obvious
10:46 < sipa> the only solution to QC is introducing a PQC signature scheme, and then at some point softforking out the ability to spend using EC based schemes
10:50 < CubicEarth> I agree with the idea of having a cut-off date by which coins would need to be moved to secure addresses (if that's what you are suggesting). It will be a catastrophe for people who didn't move their coins by then, but otherwise, it would still be a catastrophe for them when their coins get stolen, and a catastrophe for everyone when ALL the old coins enter the economy
10:53 < CubicEarth> It's not exactly "payment", but the anti-dos mechanism for the commitment could be POW
10:54 < sipa> unfortunately, miners have that in abundance, and everyone else has basically none
10:55 < sipa> so this would make anyone who doesn't have equivalently-efficient hardware as miners effectively prevented from participating
10:59 < CubicEarth> although the cost to DOS in a POW context is the opportunity cost of not mining...
11:00 < CubicEarth> but still, it's not really a solution. The miners need to be paid
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11:01 < CubicEarth> I was going to say the miners could be paid via lightning channels, but LN is probably riddled with QC vulnerabilities
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11:06 < sipa> my simple view is that bitcoin today relies on ECDLP security
11:06 < sipa> that may change in the long term, but trying to patch up just the holes we see isn't a solution
11:14 < CubicEarth> That makes sense. My fear is that QC get powerful before good solutions emerge. I believe that proper solutions would eventually be designed, but I was thinking along the lines of stop-gap measures, to hopefully enable Bitcoin's survival, even if in a reduced or even ham-strung capacity in the meantime
11:15 < CubicEarth> they'd be the 'dark ages'
11:16 < sipa> i don't think there are really any solutions
11:16 < CubicEarth> :(
11:16 < sipa> we'd need to outlaw most higher level protocols, bip32 derivation, ...
11:17 < sipa> and do so years ahead of time
11:17 < sipa> i don't think this is a real concern
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11:17 < CubicEarth> :)
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 09 00:00:05 2019