--- Log opened Wed Sep 11 00:00:07 2019 00:00 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8945:58a1:35ea:43cb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:01 -!- tromp__ [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- tromp__ [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4965:e28f:26fb:4852] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:03 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:05 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8945:58a1:35ea:43cb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:d1f8:2319:9234:4343] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:09 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:13 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:d1f8:2319:9234:4343] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 00:17 -!- fixcrypt [6dc9851a@109.201.133.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- matael1 [~matael@139.28.218.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:21 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:40 -!- Coupe420 [~Coupe420@170.55.14.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:46 -!- fixcrypt [6dc9851a@109.201.133.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:48 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:53 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56 -!- moriarty [~bwue99wx@unaffiliated/moriarty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:08 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 01:13 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24 -!- moriarty [~bwue99wx@unaffiliated/moriarty] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:30 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- jonatack [~jon@atoulouse-656-1-803-118.w86-221.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:57 < waxwing> andytoshi, re: 5.2 'amicable pairs', wouldn't secp256k1 qualify? i remember you pointing this pair of curves thing (p/q) applied for secp256k1. 01:57 < waxwing> oh right i just remembered, you called it secq 01:58 < andytoshi> yeah there is a twitter therad about this https://mobile.twitter.com/ebfull/status/1171531807105282049 01:59 < andytoshi> based on the current perf numbers ebfull described in another channel (multisecond verification, worse proving time and larger proof size than BPs) i haven't taken time to read this paper in much detail .. it seems that it won't be practical for a little while at least 02:00 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:00 -!- matael1 [~matael@139.28.218.198] has quit [] 02:01 < waxwing> thr paper is strange but it does seem rather cool. i like the algebraic trick on page 6 (is that original?) .. don't have the knowledge yet to understand the rest, it seems sketched out (they say explicitly, no soundness proof), but it does look like really interesting work. 02:07 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tel-aviv-2019/survey-of-progress-in-zero-knowledge-proofs-towards-trustless-snarks/ 02:07 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tel-aviv-2019/threshold-scriptless-scripts/ 02:07 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tel-aviv-2019/zkvm/ 02:07 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tel-aviv-2019/bitml/ 02:13 < nsh> what's the algebraic trick? 02:13 < nsh> (if it can be summarised for my poor ignorant brain) 02:15 * nsh glances at https://mathoverflow.net/questions/249982/elliptic-curve-related-equivalence-between-fields-of-different-characteristic 02:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16 < nsh> heh, Hasse bounds came up recently as someone solved 44-as-sum-of-cubes (after 33 was solved in May) and the algorithm to reduce the search space does a lot of funky stuff, inc. Montgomery batch inversion and integral pointfinding on an EC 02:16 < nsh> ( https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.04284 ) 02:17 < andytoshi> also in this recent blog post https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2019/09/the_riemann_hypothesis_part_2.html 02:17 < nsh> oh, nice! 02:24 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@89-139-132-205.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26 -!- Giszmo [~leo@2407:7000:9d28:5100:a868:5a35:748a:4bfa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27 -!- Giszmo [~leo@2407:7000:9d28:5100:542b:7e2:8abc:d3f2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:30 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tel-aviv-2019/scriptless-lotteries/ 02:31 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47 -!- Robert3 [~Robert@94.229.74.91] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:59 -!- jonatack 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Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:57 < ariard> kanzure: slides on my covenant talk, about having a dynamic tree of transactions https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1r-pUj-k-K7IQuufSUepVmjDFOZUKeUBB338ribwECk0/edit#slide=id.g5986436661_0_0 03:57 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e35:8aba:8220:6627:dad:d967:649d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:04 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufvrpouhhpfhmzeb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:06 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:07 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@c-24-130-200-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:10 < waxwing> nsh, i think there's only one on page 6? like the second half of the page. 04:12 * nsh nods 04:13 < nsh> also gets a bit Godelian... 04:13 < nsh> *almost 04:17 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26 -!- mauz555 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[~mikerah@2607:fea8:875f:f8d0::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 -!- Robert3 [~Robert@94.229.74.91] has quit [] 05:02 < waxwing> andytoshi, oh thanks for the link to the baez blog, i read the first part and then totally forgot about it lol. 05:03 < waxwing> that one is really nice. btw i remember i think Washington has a proof of the Hasse bound but it looked really very complicated. that blog gives some very interesting intuitions. 05:04 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:09 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:24 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:27 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:d1f8:2319:9234:4343] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:d1f8:2319:9234:4343] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:46 -!- 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#bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-24-72-155-6.ni.gigamonster.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4100:ac00:6012:4508:1492:d7c8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10 -!- fox2p [~fox2p@185.183.104.83] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 -!- fox2p_ [~fox2p@185.212.170.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:25 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:27 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ickxtndpjukebfle] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:27 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-230-10.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29 -!- mikerah [~mikerah@2607:fea8:875f:f8d0::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:36 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4100:ac00:6012:4508:1492:d7c8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:39 -!- davterra [~none@84.39.112.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40 -!- davterra [~none@84.39.112.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:58 -!- robin [588201ca@mue-88-130-1-202.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:58 -!- robin is now known as LinusK 13:59 < LinusK> Hi! 14:00 < LinusK> I wondered if one can use the bitcoin:URI scheme to define some "payment contact" which is more similar to what people expect addresses to be.In BIP21 bitcoin-URIs are defined to be "Payment identifiers, not person identifiers -- Current best practices are that a unique address should be used for every transaction. Therefore, a URI scheme should 14:00 < LinusK> not represent an exchange of personal information, but a one-time payment.".But with bip32 we could have an URI scheme which _does_ represent an exchange of personal information and meets the users' expectations 14:00 -!- SchwarzeLocke [~SchwarzeL@84.39.116.180] has quit [] 14:00 < LinusK> maybe I could use an URI scheme extension like this:`bitcoin:<< address_0 >>?xpub=<< extended_public_key >>`such that wallets who don't understand the "payment contact" fall back to using address_0` 14:00 < LinusK> maybe I could use an URI scheme extension like this:`bitcoin:<< address_0 >>?xpub=<< extended_public_key >>`such that wallets who don't understand the "payment contact" fall back to using `address_0` 14:01 < sipa> LinusK: if you share the xpub, it's as bad as reusing keys 14:01 < sipa> an xpub is how you privately derive multiple keys without needing a new backup for each 14:02 < LinusK> Even if I share a different xpub with every person? 14:02 < sipa> yeah, that works 14:02 < LinusK> my idea was to combine https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#Recurrent_businesstobusiness_transactions_NmisubHsub0 with the bitcoin: uri scheme 14:02 < LinusK> my idea was to combine https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#Recurrent_businesstobusiness_transactions_NmisubHsub0 with the `bitcoin:` uri scheme 14:03 < sipa> tbough you still need to interact with the receiver to know the xpub is still current 14:03 < sipa> they may have migrated to a new wallet or something 14:03 < sipa> given a preexisting business arrangement you can avoid that i guess 14:03 < sipa> but i don't know if it's much of a gain 14:04 < LinusK> the idea is about exchanging a personal contact as users are used to from i.e. Paypal 14:06 < LinusK> for a more Venmo-like wallet experience without sacrificing privacy by reusing addresses 14:08 < LinusK> do you think it is a sound design to extend the uri scheme like this:`bitcoin:<< address_0 >>?xpub=<< extended_public_key >>` 14:09 < LinusK> do you think it is a sound design to extend the uri scheme like this: `bitcoin:<< address_0 >>?xpub=<< extended_public_key >>` 14:09 < LinusK> such that wallets who don't understand the "payment contact" fall back to using `address_0` 14:10 < sipa> that'll still cause reuse reuse if the sender doesn't support the scheme 14:10 < sipa> and otherwise require the sender to keep track of how many payments have been made already 14:11 < sipa> e.g. a hardware wallet can't really show anything useful for such schemes 14:11 < sipa> because it doesn't know many payments have been created already 14:11 < LinusK> A wallet supporting this scheme could just query the derived addresses 14:12 < sipa> what does that mean? 14:14 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-230-10.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:15 < LinusK> From an xpub you can derive address_1, address_2, address_3, ... so a wallet can query these addresses one after another to find the first unused address 14:15 < sipa> the bitcoin protocol has no concept of addresses 14:15 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15 < sipa> you need an indexing service to "query" used addresses on the network 14:15 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:16 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17 -!- phyll1s_work [~phyll1s_w@139.28.218.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17 < LinusK> sure, it's inefficient in core, but in theory one could use ./bitcoin-cli scantxoutset start '["addr(3J98t1WpEZ73CNmQviecrnyiWrnqRhWNLy)"]' 14:17 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18 < sipa> that assumes you have access to a full node 14:18 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 < sipa> for example, a hardware wallet or any kind of airgapped device cannot do this at all 14:18 < LinusK> sure 14:18 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 < LinusK> most people do use wallets that do query addresses from some server 14:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:19 < sipa> that doesn't mean we should adopt standards that don't support anything else 14:19 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19 < sipa> so how do you use such an address with a hw wallet for example? the device can't show you anything useful for you to verify the receiver is correct 14:19 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20 < sipa> it can show the xpub and index, i guess 14:20 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 < sipa> and hope you can verify it's not skipping past the gap limit, or reusing an old index 14:20 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21 < LinusK> interesting thought. actually the hw wallet would even need to derive the key by itself 14:21 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21 < sipa> yes, otherwise it can't show the xpub 14:21 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21 < sipa> if it only shows the derived address, it's no good 14:22 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:22 < LinusK> ok my idea doesn't make much sense in case of hardware wallets 14:22 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22 < sipa> imho generally (barring specially negotiated exceptions) every payment needs interaction between the sender and the receiver anyway 14:22 < LinusK> though many users use some mobile wallet and they would have better privacy 14:22 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 < sipa> you think address reuse between end user wallets is common? 14:23 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23 < sipa> (honest question; i have no idea) 14:23 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 < LinusK> of course. many wallets have a contacts book which encourages you to reuse addresses 14:23 < sipa> which ones? 14:24 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24 < LinusK> doesn't even QT have such a "naive" contacts book? 14:24 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:24 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24 < sipa> i haven't use the Qt GUI for a long time, but i thought it was hidden now 14:25 < LinusK> just checked it 14:25 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:25 < LinusK> it has a naive contacts book 14:25 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26 < LinusK> I can give you more examples because I analyzed many wallets recently and wondered why so many support such a feature 14:26 < sipa> the green app doesn't 14:26 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 < sipa> (not claiming that's the common behaviour though; just giving a counterexample) 14:27 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:28 < LinusK> yes, green app's design is much more sound than most others 14:28 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 14:29 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 < LinusK> don't you think a contact book with xpubs would make sense? 14:29 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29 < sipa> i think it needs to many unstated assumptions to work for end users 14:29 < sipa> like how long is the xpub expected to remain valid 14:30 < LinusK> that is a good question 14:30 < LinusK> in general you could ask the same question for a regular address 14:30 < sipa> "you didn't get my money? i paid to xpub...." - "oh i moved from wallet X to wallet Y a month ago, it's xpub... now" <- money gone 14:30 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:31 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:32 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35 < LinusK> one idea is that the recipient gives the sender an xpub + ( freshness_address, "freshness_address signed by xpub" ). then the recipient can regularly sign the current block hash with the freshness_address and publish it in some centralized archive. then the sender can query the freshness in that archive before making a payment 14:36 < LinusK> the recipient can reuse the same freshness_address for all senders 14:37 < LinusK> of course the recipient derives the freshness_address from the same seed as the xpubs 14:39 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:45 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@89-139-132-205.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52 -!- Giszmo [~leo@2407:7000:9d28:5100:542b:7e2:8abc:d3f2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53 -!- Giszmo [~leo@2407:7000:9d28:5100:542b:7e2:8abc:d3f2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:55 < LinusK> btw: sipa can you estimate when Schnorr signatures will get shipped in testnet? 15:04 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11 < sipa> LinusK: no 15:12 < LinusK> I just checked GreenAddress for desktop and it does use a "naive" address book 15:16 < sipa> in bitcoin core it's moved to a separate "receive addresses" window, and no longer accessible from the receive money tab 15:18 < sipa> and afaik when that happened we already got complaints from people confused how to receive money now 15:18 < sipa> obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1172/ 15:19 < LinusK> sorry I don't understand what you mean. I meant the address book 15:19 < LinusK> which stores addresses of other people just like your contacts on your phone 15:20 < LinusK> and I think that is misleading because it encourages people to reuse addresses 15:20 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 < LinusK> that's why I wonder why this feature is prominent both in Core and GreenAddress 15:23 < LinusK> and I think an address book being a collection of xpubs would be much better design 15:23 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23 < sipa> i think no address book would be even better :) 15:24 < LinusK> people not using computers would be ideal X-P 15:24 < sipa> what i meant is that we've made small steps towards moving away from having previous addresses show up (they used to be accessible from the receive tab), and even that met with complaints of existing users 15:25 < sipa> it also wouldn't be compatible with software that uses hardened derivation (for which no equivalent xpub exists) 15:28 < LinusK> I disagree with you that no address book is a good idea, because I think that is a concept users are very used to and thus they can use it securely. In contrast, the whole concept of key pairs and changing addresses is highly unintuitive for normal people. We shouldn't try to teach people stuff they won't learn but we should try to come up with 15:28 < LinusK> usable designs 15:28 < sipa> heh, i believe humans should never be seeing cryptographic material in the first place 15:29 < sipa> bip70 was a nice attempt to avoid that, but a very broken design in many ways 15:29 < LinusK> I agree and that is another strong argument for a contacts book. 15:29 < sipa> i believe in practice lightning payment requests are the best hope to deal with that 15:30 < sipa> iirc there is work on reusable ones 15:30 < sipa> but i'm not an expert on that 15:30 -!- stevenroose [~steven@vps.weuste.club] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:30 < LinusK> interesting! do you have a source at hand? 15:31 < sipa> no 15:32 -!- stevenroose [~steven@vps.weuste.club] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:32 < sipa> there also exist "stealth addresses" for bitcoin, though i don't think they're adopted anywhere, which give cryptographically indistinguishable payments on chain with a static address... they have very bad scalability properties though 15:33 < LinusK> and recipients need to scan all new blocks, right? 15:33 < sipa> right 15:33 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4100:ac00:6012:4508:1492:d7c8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34 < LinusK> not very usable for most people 15:34 < sipa> agree 15:34 < sipa> and it equally suffers from the "making sure the address is current" problem 15:34 < LinusK> what do you think about my idea? 15:35 < LinusK> "one idea is that the recipient gives the sender an xpub + ( freshness_address, "freshness_address signed by xpub" ). then the recipient can regularly sign the current block hash with the freshness_address and publish it in some centralized archive. then the sender can query the xpub's freshness in that archive before making a payment" 15:35 < sipa> i don't think we should be adopting or encouraging standards that are incompatible with good practices like hardware wallets or hardened derivation 15:35 < sipa> as that may cause an incentive for people to not adopt those practices 15:36 < LinusK> why is this incompatible with hardened derivation? 15:36 < sipa> because hardened derivation doesn't have a corresponding xpub 15:36 < LinusK> okay I didn't understand hardened derivation then. I'll read it up now 15:36 < sipa> bip32 explains it 15:37 < sipa> i think a standard based on xpub derivation may make sense, but only in very restricted use cases, like recurring business-to-business payments 15:37 < sipa> where you can have a contract and whatever that clearly defines how to use them 15:41 < LinusK> I think I understood my misconception: you can not derive non-hardened keys from a hardened key, right? 15:43 < LinusK> more precise: you can not derive non-hardened xpubs from a hardened xpriv, right? 15:44 < LinusK> ...which isn't a crypto issue it's just because the standard doesn't allow that, right? 15:45 < sipa> it's not the key that's hardened 15:45 < sipa> it's the derivation 15:45 -!- stevenroose [~steven@vps.weuste.club] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:45 < sipa> given an xprv, you can derive a nonhardened pubkey, or a hardened pubkey 15:45 < sipa> the xprv also has a corresponding xpub 15:46 < sipa> but with the xpub you can only discovered the unhardened pubkeys (and thus addresses), not the hardened ones 15:46 < sipa> the hardened ones are more secure 15:47 < LinusK> of course, but the standard doesn't allow that. So If I just derive non-hardened keys from the hardened path, then this is incompatible with the standard other wallets are using 15:47 < sipa> no 15:47 < sipa> it's cryptographically a different scheme 15:47 -!- stevenroose [~steven@vps.weuste.club] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:47 < sipa> that does not support deriving pubkeys from xpubs 15:47 < sipa> so software that uses hardened derivation does not have any meaningful xpub (there is one, but it doesn't let you find the public keys used by the software) 15:48 < LinusK> yes, I think I understand that 15:49 < sipa> so your scheme would force the receiving wallet to use unhardened derivation, which would be bad 15:49 < LinusK> yes 15:50 < sipa> maybe a more meta comment... i'd very much have liked have seen a version of bitcoin history in which addresses and their common reuse was different 15:50 < LinusK> in most simple terms my idea was: derive a private key with the hardened derivation to protect your key tree and then use that privateKey to derive an xPubKey for me to derive more public keys for you 15:51 < sipa> in 2011 i helped push for payment protocols etc to get rid of the notion that addresses should be seen as accounts 15:51 < sipa> but i think it was already too late back then 15:51 < sipa> i wonder if having them be called "invoice ids" or something instead of addresses would have led to a different history 15:52 < sipa> so personally my best hope now is in fact in new layers where the concept of addresses simply doesn't exist 15:53 < sipa> there are probably places where xpubs can have some use... but i think they' 15:53 < sipa> re very limited 15:53 < sipa> and probably impossible to find critical mass for now 15:53 < LinusK> but don't you think it's cumbersome not to have the concept of "sending money to a person" ? 15:53 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-phyadb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 < sipa> no, not really... but i believe you that you have another impression 15:54 < sipa> generally payments are expected 15:54 < LinusK> I think people misuse addresses as accounts because it fits their mental model 15:55 < sipa> yes 15:55 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-eljktkufsrujivha] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:55 < LinusK> it is what they're used to from fiat payment apps and these apps just mimic physical payments 15:55 < sipa> i've had discussions with people in the past where they argued address reuse was great because it let them check their balance on a block explorer :S 15:56 -!- da2ce7 [~da2ce7@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in] 15:56 < sipa> i think the widespread use of bip32 (internally in wallets) actually improved the situation significantly there, but it took a long time, and we're not there yet 15:56 < LinusK> '=D 15:56 < LinusK> I think it is not a good idea to try to break the mental model people have but to adapt our designs to it 15:57 < sipa> i think that's a noble cause, but a broken solution to it :) 15:58 -!- da2ce7 [~da2ce7@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-yyqatxpvvetoplhv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 < LinusK> I think something like 16:03 < LinusK> bitcoin:<
>?xpub=<