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09:29 < Guest50769> hi everyone. what is your guys opinion on custodial LN hubs such as bluewallet's LNDhub?
09:30 < Guest50769> do you think this trust tradeoff is worth it for solving the inbound-capacity problem of LN?
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09:45 < jb55> no
09:46 < poon> Guest50769: there are other solutions to managing capacity that do not require surrendering custody
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09:47 < Guest50769> @poon in BTC possible today?
09:47 < Guest50769> which ones?
09:47 < poon> have someone open a channel to your node
09:48 < jb55> channel rebalancing with circular payments comes to mind. you could also create a market where you pay for inbound capacity.
09:48 < poon> ^ ,, there are already a number of services that will open a channel to your node for a small fee
09:49 < poon> if you're prepared to sacrifice custody of funds, why wouldn't you just use paypal?
09:49 < jb55> yeah the minute you sacrifice custody, centralized solutions become a much better option than lightning
09:51 < Guest50769> what if I don't want to use Dollars because I think it is immoral ?
09:52 < poon> Guest50769: you're asking us questions only you can answer.
09:57 < Guest50769> just kidding. what I actually mean is the following: say I have $5000 in BTC. I keep $4900 on-chain in a non-custodial way because for my savings I care a lot about "not my keys, not my bitcoin". now the other $100 are for daily expenses and for this purpose I care less about my absolute sovereignty and much more about transaction speed and cost.
09:57 < Guest50769> wouldn't it make sense to sacrifice custody in that case?
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09:59 < Guest50769> wouldn't it make sense to give my $100 to some trust-minimized hub to serve my needs of fast and cheap TXs with low amounts?
10:00 < poon> Guest50769: why do that if you don't have to ?
10:01 < Guest50769> can you send me some sats to on-board me?
10:01 < Guest50769> send me $0.5. I'd like to send you $0.75 back
10:03 < Guest50769> you can't give a small amount to a new user without an on-chain TX and that is an inherent limit to adoption
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11:00 < molz> what "adoption" if it's worse than fiat? at least paypal can do a chargeback, but your custodians can just take off in a scam exit and you're screwed. Anyways your "discussion" is offtopic for this channel
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11:25 < Guest33968> @molz isn't it much better than fiat? because with fiat I have to trust the banks with 100% of my funds and here I trust them with only 2% of my funds to make those 2% insanely fast and cheap to transact. also fiat is 100% intransparent and "bitcoin banks" could easily provide cryptographic proof for their honesty, solvency and history. that is
11:25 < Guest33968> much less trust than fiat
11:27 < Guest33968> additionally I can reduce the variance of my risk of losing my $100 by diversifying my money among multiple banks
11:29 < Guest33968> and of course, in comparison to paypal, the main advantage is that all of that is kyc-free, border-less, pseudo-anonymous and thus much more censorship resistant
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11:41 < Guest33968> the line of thinking would be like this: transacting via paypal is insured though you pay this insurance with your transaction fee. so that raises the following question if we can build trust-minimized banks such that the average amount of stolen money matches the insurance cost in paypal's business model. simplified: losing on average 3% of your
11:41 < Guest33968> money in bitcoin banks is similar to paying a 3% paypal fee for every transaction. if that's possible next question is if we can also reduce the variance to become practical. so if I loose funds I don't want to loose all my funds but just a fraction that doesn't hurt me too much.
11:46 < Guest33968> of course this weakens security assumptions a lot. but it is meant to be just a third layer to scale p2p payments in the range of 1 cent to $20 dollars
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 16 00:00:12 2019