--- Log opened Thu Jan 09 00:00:03 2020
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03:23 < sarang> Yes
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08:50 < andytoshi> o.O phil rogaway at real world crypto is giving a talk about linear secret sharing
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08:51 < andytoshi> where he claims that classical SS has "multiple and serious problems that limit its utility for people to use it"
08:52 < andytoshi> curious if he spoke with anyone in this space about this. wei dai is a coauthor on the paper
08:53 < instagibbs> ... how serious?
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08:54 < andytoshi> my expectation is that he's going to cover many of the problems that we've been complaining about in this space
08:54 < andytoshi> though he's talking about uses that actually make sense (unlike most bitcoin applications where checkmultisig is simpler and more appropriate)
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08:55 < andytoshi> he's talking right now about normal linear secret sharing (not verifiable secret sharing, or anything deterministic, or whatever)
08:56 < andytoshi> about how if you change a share there is no authentication or ability to recover; talking about a dealer maintaining a secret indefinitely (at least, for as long as dealing takes which may be a long time); talking about inability to regenerate secrets without doing a full re-dealing
08:57 < andytoshi> he points out that some robustness techniques exist for this but the academic definitions do not address corruption of more than one share
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09:40 < kanzure> andytoshi: stream link?
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09:51 < sarang> Stream for RWC: https://totalwebcasting.com/view/?func=VOFF&id=columbia&date=2020-01-08&seq=1
09:51 < sarang> (program appears to be on a break)
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10:36 < bsm1175321> andytoshi: bah, multiple verifiable secret sharing techniques exist. e.g. https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3319535.3354207
10:36 < bsm1175321> The problem is standardization.
10:37 < bsm1175321> Also for most bitcoin usage, you're not talking about byzantine setup.
10:38 < bsm1175321> LSS needs commitments for verifiability too, and the shares are much larger. But otherwise, I'd say they're interchangeable.
10:38 < gmaxwell> 08:57:33 < andytoshi> he points out that some robustness techniques exist for
10:38 < gmaxwell>                       this but the academic definitions do not address
10:38 < gmaxwell>                       corruption of more than one share
10:38 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: andytoshi is well aware of that, but existing scheme do not tolerate corrupted shares (or only have limited an impratical tolarance).
10:39 < gmaxwell> So you in theory have a N of M signature and year if any 1 of your M parties emits corrupted shares you can't sign at all.
10:39 < gmaxwell> (without doing some not-very-scalable shoot-parties-in-the-head process to find the broken one)
10:39 < sipa> the talk was unfortunately very short
10:42 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: It's never quite clear exactly how much fault tolerance is needed... sometimes devices are just corrupt, it doesn't have to mean malice.  ... and if you really could always trust all your signers to behave faithfully, why not just give each one a copy of an ordinary private key? :P
10:43 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: there are multisig schemes people propose where a misbehaving signer can steal the key.
10:43 < gmaxwell> which sounds exactly like the thing people are trying to prevent with multisig in the first place.
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10:54 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: see also https://github.com/ElementsProject/secp256k1-zkp/pull/46 which is an implementation of threshold signing using verifyable secret sharing by andytoshi
10:55 < gmaxwell> https://github.com/ElementsProject/secp256k1-zkp/blob/f6e4f869e03e1b4e0628e173745764038a2715f7/src/modules/thresholdsig/design.md design doc for i
10:55 < gmaxwell> t
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11:59 < andytoshi> turns out we need a broadcast channel for that to be useful
11:59 < andytoshi> curious if anybody can find any citation ever, across all the secret sharing literature, which admits this
11:59 < andytoshi> beyond using the verb "broadcast"
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12:04 < gmaxwell> It might be better to find another word other than broadcast.  Because you actually need a guarentee that all the users see the same thing -- true broadcast, not something that is satisfied by "send the data to all peers".
12:05 < instagibbs> The term is Reliable Broadcast Channel, no?
12:05 < instagibbs> Reliable doing a lot of the work there
12:05 < gmaxwell> yeah
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12:24 < jb55> allcast
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14:10 < gmaxwell> well in reality the requirement is "you need a consensus system"
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 10 00:00:02 2020