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06:44 < andytoshi> tromp_: yeah you do need knowledge of r
06:44 < andytoshi> i don't think this is proved in the BP paper, but i'm confident it's true
06:45 < sarang> andytoshi: wouldn't that simply be a soundness break?
06:46 < andytoshi> no, proof of knowledge of r is much stronger
06:48 < andytoshi> you could imagine if BPs were a zero knowledge proof, but not a zero knowledge proof of knowledge
06:48 < sarang> hmm true
06:48 < andytoshi> (this is not the case - BPs defnitely *do* prove knowledge of the actual values. it's only the blinding factors i'm unsure of)
06:48 < andytoshi> in this hypothetical, you could gin up some pedersen commitments, which you don't know the openings to, and produce a proof that their openings satisfy some predicate
06:49 < andytoshi> and the soundness of the proof only requires this be true
06:49 < andytoshi> not that you know the actual values
06:49 < sarang> right
06:50 < sarang> That's an interesting distinction between the handling of value and mask in the commitment
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07:28 < nsh> it's hard to reason about the conservation of known-entropy of blinding factors through the inner product argument
07:28 < nsh> because clearly there's a reduction of entropy
07:28 < nsh> but that doesn't imply a loss of proof of known-ness
07:28 < nsh> but there ETOOMUCHMAGIC to have a very precise idea of what's going on (for me)
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09:03 < andytoshi> interesting curves message from gmaxwell about fragility in some signature systems https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2020/001012.html
09:04 < andytoshi> also there is a reply/rebuttal from djb which seems long and unconvincing. it links to an old email which i'm not done yet, which is also long and unconvincing.
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09:06 < sipa> he suggests that standard practice is verifying the signature you just created... which is good advice in any case, for multiple reasons (also against fault attacks)
09:06 < sipa> but of course the whole point is about people who write software not following good practices
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09:11 < andytoshi> yeah, that was good
09:11 < andytoshi> fortunately it was in the first couple paragraphs
09:12 < andytoshi> but then he talks about "normal" eddsa implementations not being vulnerable to this specific attack, then links to a post where he argues against tagging hashes
09:12 < sipa> heh
09:13 < andytoshi> and gives a bizarre example where somebody encodes both "shoot the missiles" and "move the troops" as the bit 1, and says tagged hashes don't help with this confusion
09:13 < andytoshi> and cites the general difficulty of updating PGP implementations to deal with side input to signature generation
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09:17 < sipa> that sounds like a "people will think it gives a false sense of security and then shoot themselves in the foot" argument
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09:39 < waxwing> heh was just reading that and had the same response
09:43 < waxwing> also i don't get the "public key is not part of the signing algo" aspect of his argument, when he himself argued strongly for key prefixing (in the hash part, not the derandomised nonce ofc .. but still?)
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11:49 < fluffypony> https://gist.github.com/DavidBurkett/32e33835b03f9101666690b7d6185203
11:49 < fluffypony> non-interactive MimbleWimble for those that haven't seen it
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23:03 < kallewoof> Sorry for stupid question, but someone claimed that you can't securely do aggregation of signatures in Taproot (i.e. the "key spend" version) without knowing the internal private key. It seems to me that you can do so: Alice and Bob create k_a, k_b and share H(k_aG) and H(k_bG) with each other, then k_aG and k_bG, to get kG = (k_a + k_b)G. They generate and combine s_a = k_a + H(r,P,m)d_a and s_b = k_b + H(r,P,m)d_b to get
23:03 < kallewoof>  (k_a+k_b) + H(r,P,M)(d_a+d_b). For taproot, one of them would include the tweak in their part of the s, e.g. s_a = k_a + H(r,P,m)(t + d_a) to get s = (k_a+k_b) + H(r,P,m)(d_a + d_b + t). This seems to satisfy the equation. Is it broken or vulnerable to something?
23:05 < zmnscpxj> Not that I know of.
23:05 < zmnscpxj> First time I heard it was insecure
23:05 < sipa> that's how i expect it to work; the tweaking at signing time can also be done by a third party that doesn't actually have a private key
23:05 < sipa> i don't see why it would be insecure
23:06 < aj> oh no, why is zman lowercase?
23:06 < kallewoof> OK! Misunderstood then, thanks :)
23:06 < zmnscpxj> maybe I am an impostor
23:06 < zmnscpxj> In a little while I will be ranting about znn.
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23:08 < aj> kallewoof: with r=kG and P=(d_aG+d_bG) and yeah, that looks right to me too
23:08 < zmnscpxj> Fine, the OS insists on lowercasing my username, then I could not find out how this IRC client can override the nick
23:09 < kallewoof> aj: right! Ok, cool :)
23:09 < zmnscpxj> then I registered to freenode with the lowercased nick, so ----
23:09 < aj> zmnscpxj: well, lowercase nicks are cool, so you've got that going for you
23:09 < sipa> it's only a mild reduction in entropy
23:09 < zmnscpxj> I suppose ....
23:10 < zmnscpxj> It reduces by 1 bit for each character, this is an entire loss of 8 bits of entropy
23:10 -!- UPPERNICK [~a@2607:5300:201:3100::3b74] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:11 < UPPERNICK> WRONG
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23:11 < zmnscpxj> aj: you have been refuted
23:11 < aj> i've been disputed, not refuted
23:12 < sipa> i wonder who that was!
23:12 < zmnscpxj> no, UPPERNICK was definitely cool.
23:12 < aj> no, you'd need to find a lowercase nick that's not cool to refute me, not an uppercase nick that is cool
23:12 < zmnscpxj> right, elementary logic
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23:14 < zmnscpxj> lowercase -> cool, therefore !cool -> !lowercase, then !cool && lowercase refutes it
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 29 00:00:23 2020