--- Log opened Wed Feb 12 00:00:37 2020 00:15 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:6162:f62c:f421:8296] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/m7918070m1/x-47480619] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/m7918070m1/x-47480619] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 -!- kurtc [~kurt@123203169244.ctinets.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:24 -!- Coupe420 [~Coupe420@170.55.14.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@5.181.234.86] has quit [Quit: imawhale] 00:54 < kurtc> hello ^^ in the bulletproof paper, (37) is equivalent to having the value v between 0 and 2^n - 1. the 3 equations could equivalently be compressed into 2 equations, keeping the first one and replacing the second and third one by just a_L o (a_L - 1) = 0^n. Could someone give an insight on why we do not start from this instead for the rest of the protocol in this part of the paper? Seems like it would allow to rewrite 4.1 with a little b 00:54 < kurtc> it lighter protocol. I don't grasp very well the whole logic yet in particular the text between (63) and (64), but thanks a lot for any insight 00:54 -!- someone235 [uid419897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uuqlqmythmhubecs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 -!- brimstone1 [~brimstone@141.98.101.133] has quit [] 01:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl11-16-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 -!- feb [~feb@141.98.101.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:24 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:33 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:48 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:09 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:16 -!- kinlo [~peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:27 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:34 -!- kinlo [~peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:40 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- kurtc [~kurt@123203169244.ctinets.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07 < waxwing> i think the reason you need a_R separately (and explicitly) defined there is so that commitments can be made that the verifier can verify without ever explicitly seeing a_L 03:08 < waxwing> you might (or might not!) find section 6.2 onwards here helpful: https://github.com/AdamISZ/from0k2bp/ 03:09 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:10 -!- kurtc [~kurt@123203169244.ctinets.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:13 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2996:333e:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a95:b2c8:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:23 < kurtc> thank you for the response ! still following the paper, it seems like, even with those two equation you can still construct a l(X), r(X) and t(X) using two blinding vectors s_l and s_R to hide a_L. for example l(X) would become l(X) = a_L + s_L . X and r(X) would become r(X) = y^n o ( (a_L - 1^n) + s_R . X ) + z . 1^n. And you do the rest of the protocol similarly as in the paper (I used the fact that with the two equations instead, the 03:23 < kurtc> dot product identity in (39) would become = z . v ) 03:27 < kurtc> sorry, a typo is in r(X). I meant z . 2^n in the expression (and not z . 1^n) 03:28 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:29 < kurtc> I think the verifier would still not see a_R with the construct above, but I may be wrong ! will give a look at the link that you provided :) 03:51 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a95:b2c8:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2997:3549:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:59 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00 -!- feb [~feb@141.98.101.133] has quit [] 04:05 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@5.181.234.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13 -!- toony1 [~toony@185.189.112.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:17 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:31 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:41 < kurtc> *would still not see a_L 04:41 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:58 -!- harding [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe7b:78d1] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 04:58 -!- harding [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe7b:78d1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:01 -!- harding [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe7b:78d1] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02 -!- harding [~quassel@li1228-87.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:27 -!- jcoe1 [~seru@195.206.169.231] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:27 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:46 -!- kurtc [~kurt@123203169244.ctinets.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:55 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 05:57 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@5.181.234.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:30 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:41 -!- brianhoffman [~brianhoff@pool-96-240-138-69.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:00 -!- toony1 [~toony@185.189.112.11] has quit [] 07:14 -!- NotASpy1 [~NotASpy@185.189.112.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- bitcoin-wizards4 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:22 -!- bitcoin-wizards4 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 07:22 < waxwing> kurtc i think what's happening here is that you're rewriting (or writing out) a protocol variable, but not changing the actual interaction between prover and verifier 07:23 < waxwing> in noninteractive case we need prover to send A, S, T1, T2 curve points and then a logarithmic number for the inner product proof and then some scalars ... i don't think any of that changes? 07:23 < waxwing> .. with A being the vector pedersen commitment encapsulating a commitment to the a_L related stuff 07:24 < waxwing> i could for sure be wrong though, just took a brief look, it's been a while :) 07:24 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:25 -!- kurtc [~kurt@123203169244.ctinets.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:27 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@2601:196:4902:25b0:1459:db9e:cafd:e9ad] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 < kurtc> you need to modify a bit the commitment A yea (basically replacing a_R by a_L would work i think). but yes the work of the calculations may be a bit simplier so that proof generation / verification may be a little faster, but that should not be more than few nano seconds or something ? for example the calculation of delta(y,z) will not be needed, and the l(x) and r(x) a bit faster to evaluate 07:28 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@2601:196:4902:25b0:1459:db9e:cafd:e9ad] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/m7918070m1/x-47480619] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/m7918070m1/x-47480619] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 < waxwing> oh i see, you're just arguing the calculation could be made simpler, sorry i didn't even think about that, bit dumb :) 07:30 < waxwing> i dunno that seems like a harder thing to work out, possibly 07:30 < kurtc> it would be def a bit faster but no idea by how much (likely negligeable i guess though :/ ?) 07:31 < kurtc> what would be harder thing to work out ? 07:40 -!- rjected [~rjected@natp-128-119-202-137.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@bzq-3-168-31-2.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:48 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@bzq-3-168-31-2.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 07:49 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:54 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@77.139.94.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:55 -!- rjected [~rjected@natp-128-119-202-137.wireless.umass.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:56 < bitcoin-wizards3> kurtc: not sure either but check with #monero-research-lab if you get stuck 07:56 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:4c85:6cc4:a4a2:7b04] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:57 -!- rjected [~rjected@natp-128-119-202-137.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:4c85:6cc4:a4a2:7b04] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:02 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:8c16:a794:262c:4405] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:03 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 08:08 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:8c16:a794:262c:4405] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09 -!- shush [~pawn@cpe-76-176-12-33.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 -!- davispuh [~quassel@46.109.191.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:13 -!- jcoe1 [~seru@195.206.169.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:14 -!- Coupe420 [~Coupe420@170.55.14.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [3e71c29d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.62.113.194.157] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 08:30 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:35 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@77.139.94.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:37 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@77.139.94.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- jcoe1 [~seru@195.206.169.231] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 -!- rjected [~rjected@natp-128-119-202-137.wireless.umass.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38 -!- harding [~quassel@li1228-87.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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-!- moth [~moth@176.113.74.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:18 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:20 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:23 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:24 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:28 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:32 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:34 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:39 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:43 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:49 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:49 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:54 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:55 -!- bildramer1 is now known as bildramer 16:55 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:55 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@77.139.94.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56 < kanzure> suppose you had a pre-signed transaction tree protocol and you wanted a limited hardware wallet device for signing, 16:56 < kanzure> if you trusted the computer it was wired to, you wouldn't really need the wallet, and so you don't, and you therefore don't necessarily trust the transaction tree from the computer either 16:57 < kanzure> ideally, a signing device would know the template of the tree and check that everything conforms, but this requires memory and cpu that these devices don't have 16:58 < kanzure> proposal: the underpowered hardware wallet device should maintain a rolling hash of every signature ever, user connects to a verification computer after signing everything, and the user takes the list of all signatures from their possibly-compromised computer and checks that the device's hash can be recomputed from all the signatures the user was given. 16:58 < kanzure> if the user was given one minus signature, then the integrity check will fail because the hashes won't match. 16:58 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:58 < kanzure> s/one minus/minus one 16:59 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59 < kanzure> context: in pre-signed transactions it's important to be certain about the set of transactions that were signed during the lifetime of the private key. at some point you delete the key. if you find an unexpected signature, then you throw away the tree because you're compromised somehow. 17:02 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:05 -!- guest534543 [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:12 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:27 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:33 -!- someone235 [uid419897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uuqlqmythmhubecs] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:34 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:46 -!- mappum [~mappum@c-73-162-155-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:58 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:04 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:06 < jeremyrubin> I think this stems from our conversation about signature transcripts right? 18:07 < jeremyrubin> The issue with something like this is that you need to maintain potentially a lot of state outside of the hardware device, right? And the signatures themselves you may need to store as encrypted backups etc if they're sensitive (i.e., if broadcasting early is undesirable) 18:08 < jeremyrubin> The other issue is that you need not just the transcript, but also a proof that the nonces are derived correctly? 18:12 < jeremyrubin> Also I think you can just use a classic RSA accumulator in this case 18:13 < jeremyrubin> (or whatever trusted setup variant) 18:13 < jeremyrubin> Or actually even just a streaming hash function 18:13 < jeremyrubin> No need for a rolling hash if you alway have all the data 18:16 < kanzure> excuse me, yes, streaming hash 18:27 < jeremyrubin> The issue with this is that old proofs become kinda dangerous 18:27 < jeremyrubin> e.g., GET_SIG(), GET_ROLLINGPROOF(), GET_SIG() 18:27 < jeremyrubin> How do you invalidate GET_ROLLINGPROOF()? 18:28 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:28 < jeremyrubin> You need some way of saying LOCK_DEVICE_FOR_SIGNING(key) GET_ROLLINGPROOF() UNLOCK_DEVICE_FOR_SIGNING(key) 18:28 < jeremyrubin> so you can lock the device to ensure no new things have been signed while you're verifying 18:32 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:34 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:58 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:00 -!- moth [~moth@176.113.74.179] has quit [] 19:04 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:06 -!- imawhale1 [~Thunderbi@softbank126194185181.bbtec.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:07 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@5.181.234.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@softbank126194185181.bbtec.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:13 -!- ggainey1 [~ggainey@184.75.223.227] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:16 -!- imawhale1 [~Thunderbi@softbank126194185181.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:19 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined 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