--- Log opened Sat Feb 22 00:00:00 2020
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04:48 < tromp> jeremyrubin: not all nodes can delete old blocks; network needs archive nodes to seed new full nodes
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07:28 < nsh> https://www.cfail.org/call-for-papers
07:29 < nsh> --
07:29 < nsh> Do you have insightful and exciting work sitting in a drawer somewhere because it never quite panned out? Are you willing to share your failed approaches so that others can learn from them without having to re-travel the same road? Are you tired of reading papers that pretend the incremental result they happened to achieve was well-motivated and was their goal all along?
07:29 < nsh>  
07:29 < nsh> We are! That’s why we need a conference for papers that describe instructive failures or not-yet-successes, as they may prefer to be called.
07:29 < nsh>  
07:29 < nsh> The second Conference for Failed Approaches and Insightful Losses (CFAIL 2020) is seeking original papers in the field of cryptology that detail currently unsuccessful but insightful attempts to:
07:29 < nsh>  
07:29 < nsh>     Prove a conjecture,
07:29 < nsh>     Disprove a conjecture,
07:29 < nsh>     Design a cryptographic algorithm or reduction,
07:29 < nsh>     Simplify a cryptographic algorithm or concept,
07:29 < nsh>     Cryptanalyze a cryptosystem,
07:29 < nsh>     Implement a cryptosystem,
07:29 < nsh>     Formulate a new security definition,
07:29 < nsh>     Systemize a collection of ad-hoc attacks,
07:29 < nsh>     Or any other task that is part of the practice of theoretical or applied cryptology, broadly construed.
07:29 < nsh> --
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09:39 < yanmaani> man that is a cool idea
09:39 < yanmaani> I don't have a dog in this fight but that is a very cool idea
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12:38 < jeremyrubin> tromp: that's not strictly true. As implemented today, yes. But in the far-flung future, you can't guarantee the blocks are available as the state required for validation of all prior blocks can be compressed into something O(1)  (most work chain proof, UTXO set accumulator, UTXO spend accumulator, transaction validity proof, etc)
12:43 < jeremyrubin> I agree it would be nice if someone would serve old block data, I just don't think it's strictly speaking neccessary
12:44 < jeremyrubin> And it's important to keep this top of mind since if we ever go to txo proofs (which is the first step in this direction) users will be responsible for keeping their own txo data
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12:58 < tromp> i think it's not just nice, it's essential to maintain bitcoin's security model, which is based on full nodes being able to trustlessly verify what is the most worked chain
12:58 < jeremyrubin> ^ not if ZKP?
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13:00 < tromp> ZKP even if based on just ECDLP, don't offer quite the same guarantees in practice due to bigger scope for bugs in either theory or impl
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13:03 < tromp> this far flung future would have to be one in which the vast economic majority has as much faith in ZKPs as we now have in the fully transparent history verification
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13:03 < jeremyrubin> I'm just saying that there's a cost tradeoff
13:03 < jeremyrubin> ZKPs v.s. archiving and storing all this data
13:03 < jeremyrubin> people aren't going to want to store all this crap
13:04 < jeremyrubin> ZKP trust is better than expecting archival nodes to exist IMO
13:04 < jeremyrubin> One is more centalized inherently
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13:10 < tromp> i think the crap should be kept sufficiently in check that archival node prevalence is all but guaranteed
13:10 < jeremyrubin> crap?
13:10 < tromp> just quoting you back:-)
13:11 < tromp> "store all this crap"
13:11 < jeremyrubin> I don't get how you are keeping it in check
13:11 < tromp> limiting block size growth and developing second layer solutions help
13:11 < jeremyrubin> I think it will be highly unlikely in the long future that people will be getting archival nodes broadcasting. Maybe you'll go to a university library and check out a "memory crystal" to get a decade of backup data
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13:12 < jeremyrubin> tromp: disagree.
13:12 < jeremyrubin> L2 is going to increase the utilization of L1
13:13 < jeremyrubin> And I don't think anyone except luke-jr is advocating a block size reduction
13:13 < jeremyrubin> (also what do you think of segwit pruning??? -- this is a proposed thing that archival nodes won't serve signatures)
13:15 < tromp> first time i hear of segwit pruning; need to read up on that
13:15 < jeremyrubin> I think it's highly probable that if you're running an assumevalid node you don't download signatures at some point
13:16 < tromp> as adoption increases, the percentage of full nodes will drop of course, but the hope is that in absolute numbers it won't
13:16 < jeremyrubin> doubt it
13:17 < jeremyrubin> In absolute numbers it may drop simply due to hardware failures/running out of space
13:17 < jeremyrubin> or bandwidth
13:17 < jeremyrubin> if the number of nodes grows, and only a const number of archivals
13:17 < jeremyrubin> those archivals become more and more expensive to run
13:17 < tromp> storage and bw costs tend to drop exponentially over time
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13:18 < tromp> while chain growth is almost linear, so that should sort itself out
13:19 < jeremyrubin> unclear
13:19 < jeremyrubin> I'd take the bet on P(ZKPs getting better) > P(exponential bw/storage increase)
13:21 < jeremyrubin> Also I think if bw and storage do legitimately increase, we'll do more block size increases a la segwit
13:21 < tromp> i prefer bets with well-defined criteria:-)
13:22 < jeremyrubin> Well the bet is that a ZKP system would be sophisticated enough to prove chain history without data availability
13:22 < jeremyrubin> And be reasonably reviewed enough that nodes no longer serve blocks to new nodes catching up
13:22 < tromp> yes, that's the promise of recursive schemes like Halo
13:22 < jeremyrubin> Even if you *are* worried about a cryptographic break, you still wouldn't want to pay the bandwidth costs
13:23 < jeremyrubin> So you wouldn't make the data available unless there were a break in the scheme
13:23 < tromp> i expect there will be full nodes and lesser full nodes that verify a ZKP proof of most work history
13:24 < tromp> but the latter will complement rather than replace the former
13:24 < jeremyrubin> I guess that's a will see
13:24 < jeremyrubin> But it's all to say we shouldn't design around expecting immediate access to historical chain data you yourself did not store when you could have
13:25 < jeremyrubin> I should concretize my segregated inputs proposal at some point...
13:25 < tromp> the chain analysis companies will always keep copies:-)
13:26 < jeremyrubin> And wouldn't serve them to their potential competitors ;)
13:26 < tromp> they'll sell it to whomever is paying the price:)
13:26 < jeremyrubin> But also a reason to, if ZKPs get fast enough, propagate blocks without the data underneath
13:26 < tromp> that's break in consensus model that will never happen
13:27 < jeremyrubin> No not consensus
13:27 < jeremyrubin> In p2p/networking
13:27 < tromp> oh, to give miners a head start? sure
13:28 < jeremyrubin> seg inputs: Basically if you make a new segwit style commitment to the inputs being spent in a txn, you don't need to spend them in the actual TX so you can discount all the inputs being spent in addition to the witnesses. The only issue with this is you need to move the value back on chain somehow. You can do that easily if you do this at the same time as CT.
13:28 < jeremyrubin> tromp: no; you don't need to have block data to maintain consensus with the network. You need a *proof* that the tip you're mining on and utxo set are valid, and the prior tips to be able to reorg to.
13:29 < jeremyrubin> The block is just that proof
13:29 < tromp> yes, miners will take any reasoable proof that some tip is valid in order to mine on top
13:29 < jeremyrubin> But, if you could provide an alternative proof the merkle root obeyed the consensus rules, that would be fine
13:29 < jeremyrubin> tromp: yes, of course.
13:30 < jeremyrubin> But if you have a reasonable proof, you don't need *more* neccessarily
13:30 < jeremyrubin> Why would you care to get the extra bandwidth?
13:30 < jeremyrubin> What benefit is it doing for you having it?
13:30 < jeremyrubin> It hurts privacy
13:30 < jeremyrubin> So you wouldn't share it
13:31 < jeremyrubin> worse privacy --> decreases value of your Bitcoin investment
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13:31 < tromp> if you seriously care about privacy then maybe bitcoin is not for you:-)
13:32 < tromp> with that, let me thank you for sharing your thoughts and bowe out of this discussion
13:32 < jeremyrubin> Hah, I was typing the same
13:33 < jeremyrubin> People do sincerely care about privacy 'round these parts
13:33 < jeremyrubin> But it's incremental progress for sure (btw the only serve ZKproof blocks is pretty close to what grin tries to do)
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17:33 < luke-jr> [21:13:06] <jeremyrubin> And I don't think anyone except luke-jr is advocating a block size reduction <-- I would hope most devs are by now!
17:33 < luke-jr> even if not vocally
17:34 < jeremyrubin> "Let me tell you something my friend. Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane."
17:35 < jeremyrubin> I personally haven't met anyone who wants a reduction.
17:35 < jeremyrubin> (other than you)
17:35 < jeremyrubin> Now, that doesn't mean there's not a private belief there
17:36 < luke-jr> kinda pointless to work on Bitcoin if it's just going to become centralised..?
17:36 < jeremyrubin> But I think if you think there's broader support & need to reduce the space you should advocate it more concretely
17:37 < luke-jr> there isn't enough support yet IMO
17:38 < luke-jr> (developers are not enough obviously)
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