--- Log opened Sun Mar 15 00:00:22 2020
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03:54 < waxwing> Chris_Stewart_5, 'did the podle stuff get implemented in secp256k1' - no, you can use it for the underlying tweak (add, mult) operations. but the 'sig' part you have to do in steps outside that.
03:57 < waxwing> consider, in particular, the hash you construct is something like e=H(kG||kJ||P1||P2), where J is some NUMS point, so it's not like you can leverage any existing Schnorr implementation.
03:58 < waxwing> but i guess a DLEQ construction could be a nice addition to a library like that.
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04:54 < yanmaani> sipa: Don't they pay by txn fees?
04:55 < yanmaani> I want to send 1 X-coin to someone else, and even if it's just 1 sat that fee still has to be paid in bitcoins and not X-coin. So I still have to cough up bitcoins.
04:56 < yanmaani> I don't intend to make an insulting comparison here, but it is vaguely reminiscent of the situation with Ethereum and 'gas'
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09:11 < sipa> yanmaani: i'm very skeptical about that
09:11 < sipa> perhaps if fees are very substantial
09:11 < sipa> but there is also no inherent reason why miners would only accept fees in BTC
09:12 < sipa> (you could pay fees by making anyone-can-spend outputs with a recognizable structure too)
09:14 < sipa> and at least for some types of other assets, there shouldn't really be a need for a public blockchain
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09:15 < sipa> most of the useful ones are just digitized tokens backed by some real-world asset held in reserve by the issuer; such a setup inherently requires trust in the issuer to honor the peg
09:16 < sipa> no reason why in that case the issuer can't run their own private (but publicly auditable) "blockchain" and use cross-chain atomic swaps for trading
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15:41 < bsm117532> yanmaani: current iteration of the colored coins idea is RGB: https://github.com/rgb-org/spec
15:41 < bsm117532> It uses petertodd's single-use-seals to create off-chain issuance and trading, using Lightning-like channels.
15:42 < bsm117532> I think this direction is technically interesting, but I don't think sipa's "opinion" should be considered controversial...
15:42 < bsm117532> It's a straight up fact that if you can interfere with consensus by bribing miners, it's a problem and changes the game theory of the system.
15:44 < bsm117532> You could also bribe them with dollars, but that's not a problem since consensus on ownership of dollars is not decided by the output of mining.
15:44 < bsm117532> It's when mining games can result in ownership or not-ownership of additional tokens that creates consensus-incompatibility.
15:45 < bsm117532> Numerous such mining games have been observed, in the wild, on Ethereum.
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15:46 < bsm117532> IMHO assets should separate concerns, and probably, launch their own chain. Most assets (e.g. equities) are centrally controlled anyway by the issuer.
15:48 < sipa> someone once made the comment that the incentive-incompatibility argument doesn't really apply to assets that have no real world backing like cryptokitties... which may be the case, but i'm not sure that there is a reason those should have value in the first place
15:49 < yanmaani> But how is this any less incentive-compatible than normal bitcoins?
15:49 < yanmaani> A malicious miner can censor transactions. And?
15:52 < sipa> bitcoin's subsidy is expressed in BTC; that BTC needs to have value for the subsidy to add security
15:52 < yanmaani> Yeah, but if we assume coloured coins do not decrease its valu.
15:52 < yanmaani> value*
15:52 < sipa> they compete with BTC on chain
15:52 < yanmaani> Even if everyone were to start transacting in magical tokens, Bitcoin would still have intrinsic use for paying miners.
15:53 < yanmaani> Do they?
15:53 < sipa> i don't see why you think that
15:53 < yanmaani> Say I am a company, and I want to borrow money, so I issue zero-coupon bonds.
15:53 < sipa> BTC's value can be anything for that to hold
15:53 < yanmaani> I say, "I'll pay X XBT to the holder of this coloured coin on date D"
15:53 < yanmaani> how exactly does this threaten bitcoin's value?
15:54 < yanmaani> Wherein lies the comparison?
15:54 < yanmaani> competition*
15:54 < sipa> block space
15:54 < yanmaani> What is the incentive problem? Different kinds of Bitcoin transactions compete with one another too.
15:55 < sipa> they all contribute to BTC's ability to function as a currency - which at at a very long timescale hopefully contributes to its value
15:55 < yanmaani> Don't my Bitcoin bonds also do this?
15:55 < sipa> sure
15:55 < bsm117532> yanmaani: sub-assets give you numerous ways to short, making a reorg or censorship attack profitable.
15:56 < sipa> i don't claim that on-chain capacity for BTC transactions is the only thing that gives them value
15:56 < sipa> but i believe it is necessity, and if BTC risks being outcompeted by another asset on its own blockchain, i believe that its ecosystem wilk be incentivized to censor those transactions
15:57 < yanmaani> bsm117532: What, unlike the existing exchanges which do not allow you to short?
15:57 < yanmaani> Or do you mean something else?
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15:57 < bsm117532> yanmaani: consider what would happen if a dollarcoin were issued on top of bitcoin, and the market cap of that dollarcoin was larger than bitcoin.
15:58 < bsm117532> If the ratio of the two market caps is large enough, shorts on the sub-assets are much larger than the mining reward.
15:58 < yanmaani> So people would short dollarcoin and bribe bitcoin miners to vandalize it?
15:58 < bsm117532> In general this is an expected outcome: look at the market cap of major stock markets (74 trillion, if memory serves) compared to e.g. gold
15:59 < sipa> i think a better argument is that it's simply cheaper and not a reduction in security if dollarcoins were on their own issuer-controlled chain rather than bitcoin's
15:59 < bsm117532> yanmaani: short dollarcoin. Do a mining attack to prevent the short from settling.
16:00 < yanmaani> bsm117532: Well, is it? It's not like everyone is going to use StockCoin instead of stocks
16:00 < sipa> the only reason it doesn't happen is because of lack of technology standard to enable this - and perhaps some misconceptions about what bitcojn's blockchain adds
16:00 < yanmaani> but sure I get your point
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16:00 < yanmaani> sipa: Didn't Tether have their own blockchain?
16:00 < yanmaani> bsm117532: What, you mean like an OTC short?
16:00 < sipa> yanmaani: they used omni
16:00 < bsm117532> yanmaani: StockCoin instead of stocks is the value prop and direction of NUMEROUS projects in this space, including Ethereum, Liquid, etc.
16:00 < yanmaani> with credit and all
16:00 < sipa> omni being parasitically using bitcoin blockspace
16:01 < yanmaani> bsm117532: Right, but even if they succeed, it's not obvious that it will come to dwarf non-blockchain stock
16:01 < yanmaani> in fact I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts it will not
16:01 < sipa> then they moved to thereum i think, and also blockstream's liquid (not sure what is currently being actually used)
16:01 < bsm117532> It won't, for scalability reasons. But that's one thing that makes RGB interesting -- it moves all that off chain.
16:02 < yanmaani> bsm117532: Well, it still could. You issue stock depository note tokens on the blockchain, and then you trade them on a centralized exchange.
16:02 < sipa> even liquid is overkill for tether i think, but it's certainly a much better match than any public chain
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16:03 < bsm117532> yanmaani: yes, blockchains can handle global net settlement, but not trading. Having trading cryptographically committed to a blockchain is very interesting though. It makes naked shorts, fractional reserve, and other misbehavior impossible.
16:04 < yanmaani> bsm117532: The exchanges can still do it. Naked shorts are a good thing.
16:04 < yanmaani> And you can just do it in the OTC market or whatever
16:04 < bsm117532> No, they're not. And they're illegal.
16:04 < yanmaani> bsm117532: in the US, sure
16:04 < yanmaani> but there would be no law here
16:04 < bsm117532> And I'm not going to have that conversation.
16:04 < yanmaani> most of the blockchain shares stuff is heavily illegal otherwise
16:04 < yanmaani> I mean isn't that the point? Allowing insider trading etc
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16:05 < yanmaani> about naked shorting or US law?
16:05 < bsm117532> Naked shorting. If you want to defraud people by selling things you don't have...that's straight up fraud and not debatable.
16:06 < bsm117532> Anyway, it can be made cryptographically impossible, in principle.
16:06 < bsm117532> (and that's interesting)
16:06 < yanmaani> naked shorting aids price discovery and liquidity. It is very debatable
16:07 < yanmaani> so I mean it seems like the only upside of this is to free the markets of regulation
16:07 < bsm117532> I'm gonna pull a sipa now and walk away from a ridiculous conversation. Have a good night.
16:07 < yanmaani> like, you have MNPI, you want to trade on it
16:07 < yanmaani> bada bing, bada boom
16:07 < yanmaani> gn
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