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[~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 09:16 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@77.243.191.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:19 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 < yanmaani> Has the idea of using DHT to bootstrap Bitcoin without DNS seeds been evaluated? 09:40 -!- son0p [~son0p@181.136.122.143] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:45 < gleb> yanmaani: DHT is a lookup service. Which keys are you suggesting to look up? 09:55 < yanmaani> A static key, such as sha256("bitcoin-bootstrap") 09:55 < yanmaani> So, you send outgoing UDP packets to whatever is the default BitTorrent DHT port with the initial handshake to random IPs. 09:56 < yanmaani> Then, you complete the handshake with whoever responds. And from there, you look up sha256("bitcoin-bootstrap"), and get Bitcoin seed nodes, who in turn feed you IPs of Bitcoin nodes 09:57 < yanmaani> This means you don't have any seed nodes, just IPv4. You just need to send a few thousand packets to have a pretty good probability of success. 09:57 < gleb> So, you are suggesting to probe thousands of random IPv4 ports? 09:58 < yanmaani> yep 09:59 < gleb> First of all, it's questionable how ethical is this. Second of all, it's trivially Sybil-able. There are 10 thousands reachable nodes right now. An attacker would have to deploy like extra 20k to be successful. Maybe less, if an attacker can manipulate BGP or whatnot. 10:00 < yanmaani> p = (1-(n/2^32))^N; for n = 10M and p = 0.5 that gives 0.5 = .9977^N => ln(0.5) = Nln(.9977) => ln(0.5)/ln(.9977) = N = 297 10:00 < yanmaani> gleb: No, BitTorrent has ~10 million nodes. 10:01 < sipa> who would have the authority to update the DHT entry? 10:01 < yanmaani> So they'd have to take over the BitTorrent network's DHT 10:01 < gleb> I don't really know how BitTorrent DHT works. Who runs the nodes? 10:01 < yanmaani> sipa: You announce to the DHT, the only data you _can_ insert (by protocol) is your own IP 10:02 < yanmaani> gleb: Anyone who runs a mainstream BitTorrent client, basically 10:02 < sipa> ah 10:02 < yanmaani> so, Random People On The Internetâ„¢ 10:02 < yanmaani> always a sure bet for your business critical service needs 10:06 < yanmaani> If you send 297 outgoing packets you have a 50% chance of success. If you would optimize it to only send to active ranges, you would probably do much better 10:07 < yanmaani> https://web.archive.org/web/20160304231200if_/http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images/hilbert_icmp_map_lowquality.jpg Here is the Carna Botnet, for example. If you'd just give each /8 a number based on the claimed number of reachable hosts (probability), square this, and use it as the weighting to pick a random /8, you could probably do much better 10:07 < gleb> "and get Bitcoin seed nodes, who in turn feed you IPs [...]". What are these seed nodes in your idea? Are them just *any* random reachable Bitcoin nodes? 10:07 < yanmaani> eyeballing it we are talking maybe 50-100 packets? 10:08 < yanmaani> gleb: Well, they have to speak both DHT and Bitcoin. So it's a node that announces to the DHT and says "hi, I have a list of Bitcoin nodes for you" 10:08 < yanmaani> But yes, it could be possible to make Bitcoin Core speak DHT - the protocol is extremely simple 10:08 < yanmaani> And Bitcoin Core wouldn't have to brute-force it as a first attempt, they could first try to get introduced by a DNS peer and only have brute-force as a fallback. 10:08 < gleb> We want to have a more or less random graph, so every reachable nodes gets roughly the same number of connections, if simplified. 10:09 < yanmaani> Yeah that would be doable if all nodes were to announce to the DHT 10:09 < gleb> Furthermore, it's important to not make it influencable. What if a bad node is *more active* with announcing to DHT. Like, spams it every second or something. 10:10 < yanmaani> They're still constrained by number of IPs. 10:10 < gleb> Sure, same as with DNS seeds. But at seeds, we don't care about how often someone announces to us. 10:11 < yanmaani> If there's 10k legit nodes and the attacker rents 100k botnet nodes, then you'll have 110k nodes, of which the attacker controls 91%. So you'll need to speak to ~7 nodes to have a 50% prob of finding at least one honest. 10:11 < gleb> I'm just saying maybe their DHT have some other prioritization logic. 10:11 < yanmaani> Well, there's very little logic involved. Basically it works like this: 10:11 < yanmaani> each node has an ID 10:12 < yanmaani> the first 10 bits or whatever of the ID is derived based on hash of first 24 bits of IP 10:12 < yanmaani> the rest they can choose 10:12 < yanmaani> (somewhat simplified) 10:12 < yanmaani> Based on the ID, they are responsible for a certain portion of the keyspace 10:12 < gleb> You are not hearing me, I'm talking about the other problem. What if an attacker can be strategic about sybil'ing, which would give him an advantage? For example, choose a better IDs or announce more often. 10:12 < yanmaani> And when I want to insert somewhere, I find the N closest nodes, and tell all of them. 10:13 < yanmaani> Well, there's basically two attacks you're describing 10:13 < gleb> So, not a lot of sybils, but just smarter than single bitcoin nodes. This may be possible due to the BitTorrent DHT logic, which I don't know, so I'm asking. 10:13 < yanmaani> one is, attacker doesn't run any nodes 10:17 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be01:b201:b865:43b9:34cd:d980] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:30 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:31 < yanmaani> ...one is, attacker doesn't run any nodes 10:31 < yanmaani> he just constantly announces to the DHT 10:31 < yanmaani> The other one is, attacker runs nodes 10:31 < yanmaani> and tries to control that portion of the keyspace 10:31 < yanmaani> To do this, he has to rent servers with specific IPs, basically 10:33 < yanmaani> gleb: The second attack would require a lot of VPSes, basically 10:34 < yanmaani> I think it falls under "if it were so easy, someone'd have done it by now" - lots of people who don't like people downloading movies and who are willing to pay smart people money to send legal threats/do DoS attacks 10:35 < gleb> "To do this, he has to rent servers with specific IPs, basically". So this would be weaker than what we have today, right? There's no much gain from doing this today. 10:35 < gleb> this = this system you're suggesting 10:36 < yanmaani> This in my view should be put in as a fallback 10:36 < yanmaani> He has to find IPs in specific ranges, and make sure that he controls precisely 100% of them 10:36 < yanmaani> so, rent VPSes with good IPs, pay bribes to providers, pay bribes to shady ISPs to announce bogons and stuff, and DoS the rest 10:37 < yanmaani> But the flip side is, there is *NO* central seed node needed to enter the network. None whatsoever. 10:37 < gleb> But you said it's a fallback. What's the primary mechanism then? 10:37 < yanmaani> DNS seeds, as right now 10:37 < yanmaani> Under good conditions, they work better 10:38 < yanmaani> but they're a single point of failure 10:38 < gleb> So there are central seed nodes, right? 10:38 < yanmaani> it's like in BitTorrent 10:38 < yanmaani> trackers are always better, if you have them 10:38 < yanmaani> but if not, DHT's your only choice 10:38 < yanmaani> Well, Bitcoin has central seed nodes. 10:38 < yanmaani> The DHT has too. But in the presence of working Bitcoin DNS seeds, there's no need to join the DHT. 10:38 < yanmaani> Except of course to make sure the fallback is running. 10:40 < gleb> Maybe when DNS seeds are down, your idea may work better than our hardcoded list for a fallback. However, it puts some extra burden about self-announcements. And also, as we concluded above, it can be vulnerable to IP grinding (probably not that difficult since we have only 10k reachable nodes). 10:40 < yanmaani> no, the IP grinding is against 10m nodes 10:41 < yanmaani> and you have to have many different /24s 10:41 < gleb> Doesn't it have to just satisfy hash("bitcoin-seed") thing? 10:41 < yanmaani> Yes, to 20 bits or whatever 10:41 < gleb> Grind those which fall into this query more efficient than others. 10:41 < yanmaani> but that's the hash of the first bits 10:41 < yanmaani> "The expression to calculate a valid ID prefix (from an IPv4 address) is:" 10:41 < yanmaani> crc32c((ip & 0x030f3fff) | (r << 29)) 10:43 < yanmaani> This means, you need a good ISP diversity 10:43 < gleb> Anyway, if you want to suggest it for Bitcoin Core, I suggest writing up something summarizing the applicable trade-offs and engineering efforts :) 10:44 < yanmaani> so there's a nice graph here: http://www.bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0042_ip_id_v4.png 10:44 < yanmaani> Right. Where do I post it, as a BIP on GitHub? 10:45 -!- davispuh [~quassel@46.109.191.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:47 < gleb> I think an email to the mailing list would be good for starters. It's not very rich for diagrams, so maybe you want host your write-up elsewhere. But BIPs are more about implementation details, it's too early for that I'd say. 10:47 < gleb> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev 10:49 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:49 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:50 < yanmaani> thanks 10:57 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 -!- jungly [~jungly@host21-196-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59 -!- jungly [~jungly@host21-196-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- porvak [~porvak@185.204.1.185] has quit [] 11:01 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Quit: bye, freenode] 11:06 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Client Quit] 11:19 -!- jungly [~jungly@host21-196-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:cd18:d0fd:8283:1f9d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21 -!- ThunderChicken1 [~ThunderCh@185.204.1.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:cd18:d0fd:8283:1f9d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 -!- davispuh [~quassel@46.109.191.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:40 -!- davispuh [~quassel@46.109.191.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:15 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- jungly [~jungly@host21-196-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- corollari [sid405633@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dsoynfgsgdqdtfpu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:22 -!- jungly [~jungly@host21-196-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:32 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.161.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:34 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.170.227.51] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:51 -!- ryan_singer [~ryan@208-90-212-249.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- jungly [~jungly@host21-196-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 13:02 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfdcyildyxwzbimq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- davispuh [~quassel@46.109.191.82] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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