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09:05 < michaelf_> Hey. Does allowing people to use improved light client protocols really drive the full node count down?
09:05 < michaelf_> The alternative is to push mobiles into using trusted servers. It is not light client or full node. It is light client or trusted server.
09:05 < michaelf_> Pushing them towards trusted server by preventing light clients seems to be antithetical to Bitcoin trust minimization and permissionlessness?
09:05 < michaelf_> What am I missing?
09:06 < michaelf_> Context: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-May/002678.html
09:11 < theStack> i think that depends on how "full node" is defined. would you consider a node not serving filters for light clients still to the full node count?
09:14 < sipa> i consider a node that does not serve anything at all, and isn't even discoverable by others on the network to be a full node
09:14 < michaelf_> I would... You don't need to be accepting incoming connections to be a full node. You wouldn't need to be serving filters to be a full node
09:15 < michaelf_> But I don't understand what relevance that has to my initial question(s). Can you explain?
09:16 < michaelf_> We don't say there are zero full nodes today because none of them are serving filters
09:16 < theStack> well, generally speaking, i'd say to answer the question "does x drive y down?", it makes sense to exactly define y first :)
09:17 < michaelf_> Ok sure, gotcha!
09:17 < sipa> "full node count" is also the wrong metric; the real thing that matters is how many independent parties run and *use* a full node
09:17 < sipa> unfortunately, the real thing is very hard to measure
09:18 < michaelf_> Ok so we are concerned with x = independent parties running and using a full node
09:19 < michaelf_> Does allowing people to use improved light client protocols really drive x down?
09:20 < theStack> sipa: michaelf_: i would agree on your definition of full node count, but isn't it that people are having doubts about the decrease of _listening_ full nodes?
09:21 < theStack> in the end a high full node count is worthless if no-one would accept incoming connections
09:21 < sipa> theStack: i don't care at all about that
09:21 < sipa> (i would if the numbers dropped to dangerous levels, but there is no evidence of that)
09:23 < sipa> i think serving the network and providing validation services are ultimately orthogonal services, and there is no reason why they need to be correlated, or even provided by the same software in the long term
09:23 < michaelf_> x = independent parties running and using a full node OR x = independent parties running and using a listening full node
09:23 < michaelf_> Does allowing people to use improved light client protocols really drive x down?
09:24 < michaelf_> Obviously it is not certain. But it appears to me at least plausible that increased usage of light client protocols drives x up.
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09:25 < michaelf_> Otherwise their use will be inherently limited. And people will be driven to alternatives anyway
09:25 < sipa> i don't see why it would drive x up?
09:28 < michaelf_> In a world where every mobile is a light client, there will have to be more full nodes to serve them all filters
09:28 < theStack> sipa: that makes sense; but couldn't it be that this "numbers drop to dangerous levels" is exactly the people opposing bip 157 are worried about?
09:29 < theStack> im not having a concrete opinion yet by the way, still trying to grasp the full picture
09:29 < michaelf_> Me too
09:31 < michaelf_> Is there an argument that at some point in the long term future mobiles could all be running a pruned full node?
09:32 < sipa> wellyou should ask the people who have such opinions
09:33 < sipa> i suspect different people have different concerns; there are all sorts of incentive questions around light client use
09:35 < michaelf_> By incentives you mean people have different visions for where their projects fit into their long term view of Bitcoin's future?
09:36 < sipa> 1) incentive to serve data on the network at all
09:37 < sipa> 2) costs of running a full node with increased protocol requirementa
09:37 < theStack> sipa: sure there are a bunch of different concerns here, but i was referring specifically to the "worried about decreasing node count" one
09:37 < sipa> 3) incentives for miners to produce valid blocks if fewer independent validations happen
09:38 < sipa> theStack: to me personally, the term "full node" is unrelated to services offered to the network
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09:41 < sipa> theStack: and i suspect - but don't know - that most of the concerns about "dropping full node count" are about the question whether miners will remain incentivized to produce valid blocks if most of the ecosystem depends on outsourced validation - but i don't know
09:41 < theStack> sipa: hmm but in the case of bip 157 being a full node is a requirement for creating the service information, or did i miss something?
09:42 < michaelf_> In a worst case where x did drop materially post merging of serving filters is it plausible that it could be disabled in a future release? I know ideally Core would prefer to avoid these types of flip flop scenarios.
09:44 < sipa> i think the question is rather: what if it becomes available by default, and people start building services that rely on having cheap/easy access to filters... to the point where it becomes infeasible to turn it off again
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09:46 < sipa> theStack: sure, but creating the filters and serving them isn't the same; the latter could be done by HTTP/cloud services/satellite feeds/... too
09:46 < theStack> the origin of a filter information (which is deduced from full blocks) has to come from a full node, i don't see an alternative here
09:47 < sipa> theStack: same is true for blocks, in a way - you only know what blocks to serve by validating them yourself... but serving them does not increase the cost of validation
09:47 < sipa> it's providing dumb data
09:47 < michaelf_> But as I understand the plan with PR #18877 is that they won't be available by default? The question is whether this is a stepping stone to them being turned on by default?
09:48 < sipa> tbf, my idea is that they should be softforked in at some point im the future (increasing validation cost for all full nodes), and then made available by default to the network... just because people really shouldn't be using unverifiable data from untrusted peers in general
09:49 < sipa> i suspect that is even more scary to people who feel all increased light-client support is a bad thing
09:50 < sipa> i also suspect not many people think this way, and envision using filters from untrusted peers - i don't know
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09:50 < sipa> it's still an improvement over bip37
09:51 < michaelf_> So is there an argument that serving filters shouldn't be merged now as it should be done properly as a soft fork (assuming consensus)?
09:51 < theStack> sipa: for some reason i thought that the probability of a full node serving wrong filter information is lower than from arbitrary network nodes
09:52 < sipa> theStack: probability is not the right metric
09:52 < theStack> but i can't really justify
09:53 < sipa> i like this analogy: in civil engineering you design building to withstand random events (earthquakes) and think about probabilities to analyse that
09:53 < sipa> in military engineering yoj design buildings to withstand attackd, and think about how costly an attack is
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09:54 < sipa> theStack: full nodes cannot be distinguished from arbitrary network nodes
09:54 < sipa> that's the point - the fullness only matters to its operator
09:54 < sipa> because don't trust, verify, yada yada
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10:02 < theStack> but if serving the network and providing validation services are orghogonal services, maybe bitcoin core is not the right place to put bip 157 in but rather start a separate software project focussed on just serving filters?
10:03 < sipa> eh, i was talking more theoretically over the long term
10:03 < sipa> in the sense that in theory serving the network could be done by other things
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13:21 < yanmaani> sipa: Miners have incentives, right?
13:21 < yanmaani> Miners want to get txn fees, so they want for people to send txns, so they want to incentivize SPV node stuff.
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16:10 < belcher> yanmaani if most of the economy uses SPV then miners also have an incentive to print more bitcoins than is allowed by the controlled supply
16:11 < yanmaani> if say 1% still use non-SPV then that shit won't fly
16:11 < belcher> so you're right that probably it wont be too hard to find the resources to host all this stuff, but it may not lead to an outcome most people want
16:11 < sipa> yanmaani: i don't see how miners could influence/incentivize SPV node functionality
16:12 < yanmaani> belcher: I imagine some large sites would run full nodes too
16:13 < belcher> if only 1% of the economy uses full nodes then probably what would happen is bitcoin would split into inflation-bitcoin and original-bitcoin, and since 99% use inflation-bitcoin then that coin would end up winning having a higher liquidity/value/adoption
16:13 < yanmaani> sipa: By providing the required full nodes.
16:13 < yanmaani> If full nodes were to become extremely expensive, miners would run them
16:13 < yanmaani> as a loss-leader
16:13 < belcher> you're misunderstanding how full nodes work, it doesnt matter to you if someone else has a node, the only thing that matters to you is your own node
16:14 < yanmaani> belcher: SPV could do fraud proofs.
16:14 < belcher> if someone figures out a way to make those work them im all ears
16:14 < yanmaani> "block X is fraudulent, blacklist all nodes who send it, the proof is [...]"
16:14 < yanmaani> it's not hard, just inelegant
16:15 < yanmaani> creating coins ex nihilo is provable
16:16 < sipa> not everything is efficiently provable (e.g. block weight limit, excess subsidy, ... basically require the entire block as proof)
16:17 < sipa> there are softforkable solutions to that, but that still has the issue that the indexes required to be able to efficiently create those proofs are many times larger than what is needed to just validate
16:17 < yanmaani> You can just send the entire block though.
16:17 < yanmaani> It'd just happen once per attack.
16:18 < sipa> that doesn't work for doublespending proofs
16:18 < sipa> which either require an index on the prover side for all spent coins ever, or a utxo set on the verifier side (=essentially a full node)
16:19 < yanmaani> Seems like UTXO commitments would fix it
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16:19 < sipa> yes
16:20 < yanmaani> Why don't we have them? "perfect is the enemy of good" and accumulators?
16:20 < sipa> at a pretty high cost
16:20 < yanmaani> not that high?
16:20 < sipa> it's an order of magnitude increase in I/O overhead for block validation
16:21 < sipa> because you'd need to update every merkle leaf above modified entries
16:22 < sipa> a stateless design like utreexo doesn't have that problem
16:22 < yanmaani> Would something like a log-structured merge tree work better?
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16:22 < sipa> it needs to be indexed by txid to enable efficient proofs
16:23 < yanmaani> I'm thinking basically you have multiple UTXO sets
16:23 < yanmaani> And keep every one as a perfect tree
16:23 < yanmaani> And make a proof for each tree
16:24 < yanmaani> so you have tree 1, and then tree 2 which is a delta for tree 1, and then t3 which is a delta for (t1+t2), ...
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