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06:20 < kanzure> "Fast hash-based additive accumulators" https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bigspider/accumulator/master/docs/paper-draft.pdf
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09:29 < bsm117532> This looks basically like a Merkle Mountain Range (petertodd), adding skip lists.
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09:53 < mappum> what's the likelihood of OP_MUL getting enabled? it would be useful to me for a weighted multisig (e.g. <pub_a> OP_CHECKSIG <weight_a> OP_MUL OP_ADD ...)
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09:55 < sipa> for all intents and purposes, it does not exist
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09:55 < sipa> so the question isn't about enabling it, but adding it
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10:27 < mappum> sipa: hypothetically if it had a BIP and implementation could it be part of the same bundle of changes for the future bip-taproot deployment (IIRC SIGHASH_NOINPUT would be a part of that bundle as well)?
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10:31 < sipa> mappum: no reason why they should interact at all
10:32 < sipa> bip341/342 contain a bunch of changes, but i think there is motivation for each of them why it's preferable to combine them over having independently activatable proposals
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14:11 < tromp> bsm117532: MMR additions are O(1) amortized, so not much improvement possible in practice
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14:16 < yanmaani> tromp: Aren't the storage requirements far lower?
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14:18 < tromp> similar if using MMR just as accumulator
14:19 < tromp> MMR stores O(log n) peaks
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15:11 < jeremyrubin> mappum: I think what you want (OP_MUL) in that example can be emulated with 0 <w> <pk> CHECKSIG OP_DROP OP_ADD. If checkisg is true, then <0> gets dropped, if checksig is false, then <w> gets dropped, leaving desired value on the stack.
15:15 < jeremyrubin> You can even generalize this gadget for composition like:
15:16 < jeremyrubin> Ah I'm missing an OP_ROLL in my script
15:17 < jeremyrubin> 0 <w> <pk> CHECKSIG OP_ROLL OP_DROP OP_DUP <w2> OP_ADD <pk2> CHECKSIG OP_ROLL OP_DROP...
15:17 < jeremyrubin> And then terminating with a threshold check
15:18 < jeremyrubin> What's nice is your <pk> checksig can be any gadget that returns 0 or 1
15:18 < jeremyrubin> Original script should be 0 <w> <pk> CHECKSIG OP_ROLL OP_DROP OP_ADD in case unclear
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16:38 < mappum> jeremyrubin: not sure but i think that might come out to the same size as what i have now, which is 0 <pk> OP_CHECKSIG OP_IF <w> OP_ADD OP_ENDIF ...
16:40 < mappum> (except actually for the first one I'm doing `<pk> OP_CHECKSIG OP_IF <w> OP_ELSE 0 OP_ENDIF` but i think starting with the 0 would be 1 byte smaller
16:42 < mappum> oh btw I forgot the OP_SWAP in there before the CHECKSIG
16:42 < sipa> just use taproot leaves
16:42 < sipa> to encode your supported combinations
16:42 < mappum> planning on it :)
16:42 < mappum> except, there will be too many combinations so i will still have this script as a fallback leaf
16:43 < sipa> in that case you don't really care about its efficiency i expect
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16:44 < mappum> i expect it to execute the key path 99% of the time, which will be a musig of the combination i expect to happen most often
16:45 < sipa> right
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16:50 < mappum> has anyone ever considered making a taproot futures market, to let the market judge the likelihood of when taproot will activate for different future dates?
16:50 < sipa> i think that would create terrible incentives
16:51 < mappum> hm interesting, i guess you would be the person most suited to "insider" trade it, however that only makes the market more accurate at predicting
16:52 < sipa> i'm intentionally staying out of the debate on activation, so no :)
16:52 < mappum> what terrible incentives do you mean? undue pressure to finish it on a tight schedule?
16:52 < sipa> yes, these things should progress at whatever rate the technical community can handle
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16:55 < mappum> i agree, but also i don't think the market would really control the actions of the developers. it would mostly be traders observing the progress
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17:47 < jeremyrubin> mappum: I think it's the same, yeah. What's nice about the form I gave is that you can make that gadget compose with sub-thresholds a bit nicer. E.g., if the threshold returned from a sub-group is 1 2 or 3 and I want 1 to map to 4, 2 to map to 10, and 3 to map to 12, then I can just add another weight in there to ROLL from.
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 09 00:00:45 2020