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09:44 < CubicEarth> I think it could be helpful to require that all blocks be padded to be some maximum size. I don't have a suggestion for how that would practically work with the way segwit is currently implemented.
09:45 < CubicEarth> But thinking about the lighting flood issue, the larger concern seems to be how to design a system to have surge capacity
09:46 < CubicEarth> I think surge capacity is fundamentally at odds with designing something that is perfectly optimized to work right up to the margins most of the time
09:48 < CubicEarth> So perhaps if there were a way to make all blocks be a larger size, but incentivize half or three quarters or even 90% of the block to be padded with junk, then under certain conditions, that junk could be replaced with transactions
09:50 < CubicEarth> The junk would need to be transmitted initially, but could / should be able to be pruned off and not stored long term nor needed for the IBD
09:51 < sipa> I don't see how that would address anything.
09:54 < CubicEarth> if a system is always used to full capacity, then it is hard or impossible to accommodate surges
09:54 < sipa> in a market based system, bulk usage is not what matters
09:55 < sipa> only usage that pays more than you
09:55 < sipa> stuffing things with garbage would inherently pay zero 0, and thus be irrelevant from the perspective of anyone who wants to pay a nonzefo fee
09:56 < CubicEarth> I agree, except in Bitcoin people are incredibly concerned with the 'externality' of what costs larger blocks impose on nodes
09:57 < CubicEarth> The garbage idea, vs just having low-paying txs fill that space, helps because it wouldn't need to be stored or validated on IBD
09:57 < sipa> so it doesn't matter for fee calculation, and doesn't put load on nodes... what is the point?
09:58 < sipa> can we just pretend it's there instead?
09:59 < CubicEarth> If surge events are rare enough, things can brake when that happens. So passing around junk would keep every one well practiced. It would be like continual fire drills
09:59 < sipa> but it's not a fire drill if it's zero fee
09:59 < CubicEarth> (making sure latencies works, that people have enough bandwidth, and processing power to handle the blocks)
10:03 < CubicEarth> I'm not sure why the not having a fees would change it. Right now, even if provided for in the protocol, if there were a series of 10 MB blocks, conceivably there are some systems out there that would have problems, since the bandwidth would exceed there specs
10:03 < CubicEarth> You don't want systems to break under load conditions
10:04 < CubicEarth> padding all blocks to that size would make sure that didn't happen
10:05 < sipa> oh, that has nothing to do with the lightning flood issue
10:05 < sipa> you're talking about nodes being able to deal with blocks at capacity
10:06 < sipa> i don't think that's a problem, most blocks are max weight already or close to it
10:07 < CubicEarth> well one solution to lighting flood issue, theoretically, is to have elastic block sizes that would be capable of expanding to larger (significantly larger?!) size during an instance of a large scale attack
10:07 < CubicEarth> right?
10:08 < sipa> if an attacker can outbid the "legitimate" use you're trying to protect, why couldn't they do the same with the added elastic capacity?
10:08 < sipa> unless it's orders of magnitude larger, which obviously runs into other problemz
10:11 < CubicEarth> I see
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10:13 < jeremyrubin> CubicEarth: have you looked at OP_CTV congestion control?
10:13 < jeremyrubin> It has both effects you are talking about
10:15 < jeremyrubin> https://utxos.org/uses/scaling/
10:15 < CubicEarth> I'm not sure why, but my long-held conception until right now was that somehow that lightning 'disputes' could overwhelm chain capacity to resolve them. But I'm struggling to think why I thought that, because I guess it makes sense the rate of disputes themselves limited by block space, and therefore in proportion to the rate of ability to resolve them
10:15 < jeremyrubin> https://utxos.org/analysis/bip_simulation/
10:15 < jeremyrubin> CubicEarth: Lightning channels use abs time locks
10:15 < jeremyrubin> so they can get overwhelmed
10:17 < CubicEarth> jeremyrubin: I remember when you first presented OP_CTV (then under a different name), and thought it was great, but haven't thought about its implications much since
10:18 < jeremyrubin> Going to give a VR talk in 50 mins if you want to join :) not about scaling and congestion control tho
10:19 < jeremyrubin> CubicEarth: I recall :) thanks again for the support!
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10:20 < CubicEarth> Thanks for the sponser credit... now I get to feel like a big shot!
10:24 < CubicEarth> roasbeef has an idea... pre-allocated space for dispute adjudication (PASDA), or something like that... anyone recall?
10:24 < CubicEarth> roasbeef: ?
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11:32 < instagibbs> IIRC that type of idea was joseph poon first?
11:32 < instagibbs> (I have no citations but i recall it being floated for an extension block)
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12:20 < waxwing> all the space is for dispute adjudication :)
12:30 < sipa> +1
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19:20 < benthecarman> Hello, I am implementing branch and bound for coin selection. In the algrothim 10, in the paper, it says to randomly choose between the inclusion vs omission branches, however, in murch's own implementation and bitcoin core's implemenetion, neither do and both do the inclusion branch first, is there a reason for this?
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 12 00:00:16 2020