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10:01 < CubicEarth> The banlist for misbehaving peers is based on IP, correct?
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10:05 < sipa> yes
10:05 < CubicEarth> I am curious about ideas relating to node reputation... I'm sure its been discussed a million times in the past
10:06 < CubicEarth> but the ban list is a very weak attempt at reputation
10:06 < CubicEarth> since the offending nodes can just change their ip
10:06 < yanmaani> More like disreputation
10:06 < yanmaani> also, it's called discouragement these days
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10:07 < CubicEarth> is there any sort of "preferred" peer function currently?
10:08 < CubicEarth> and if that done by IP, would it not be preferable, or just desirable in any case, to have a cryptographic node id, a la lighting nodes?
10:10 < CubicEarth> I see sipa has answered here: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/52176/is-there-a-way-to-tell-if-a-specific-bitcoin-node-is-on-the-network
10:10 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: Well so you are describing a specific thing. No, the purpose of the discouragement is to just tell the nodes who send you complete garbage to piss off
10:10 < sipa> CubicEarth: for several reasons, no
10:10 < yanmaani> You send transactions everywhere, and you get transactions and blocks from everywhere.
10:11 < sipa> 1) nodes shouldn't be identifiable for the reason you linked
10:11 < yanmaani> There's no point. Why would you want to trust your peers more than that?
10:12 < sipa> 2) introducing identities that have no cost is pointless; an attacker would just cycle through identities instead of letting himself earn a bad reputation
10:12 < sipa> 3) banning by ip works because the resource used is _the ip address_: the concept relies on IP addresses themselves having a small but nonzero cost, so an attacker can't get an infinity of them
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10:15 < yanmaani> Don't try to jerry-rig the "ban the garbage nodes" system into a "trust the good nodes" system. It's not built for that.
10:16 < CubicEarth> yanmaani: lol... I mean I was thinking they are the same thing
10:16 < sipa> note that automatic banning isn't really banning anymore; those peers can still connect to you, they're just preferred for eviction
10:16 < yanmaani> Nope. The Bitcoin network has no notion of "trusted" nodes, just "nodes it doesn't think will flood you with garbage"
10:17 < sipa> the primary purpose of the discouragement is to keep your connections free of broken software
10:17 < CubicEarth> sipa, on point 2, generating an identity is costless, but establishing a long and flawless record of good behavior is not
10:17 < sipa> if peers want to DoS attack you there are plenty of trivial other ways
10:18 < CubicEarth> I agree, wouldn't stop that
10:18 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: Yeah but how would you check it?
10:18 < yanmaani> You would basically have to make a gigantic web of trust system
10:18 < CubicEarth> Yes, eventually that would evolve on it's own
10:18 < yanmaani> "I promise dude, I've been in this business for ten years! Here are ten other nodes who I claim are totally credible who back up my claim!"
10:18 < yanmaani> to what end?
10:19 < yanmaani> Why do you want to trust the nodes?
10:19 < sipa> CubicEarth: i hate slippery slope arguments, but turning the network into something with recognizable identities is really scary to me - the whole point was to have a permissionless system!
10:19 < CubicEarth> it could help avoid partition attacks
10:20 < CubicEarth> sipa: for sure
10:20 < sipa> CubicEarth: we do have some work on a "private authentication" mechanism, where nodes could optionally be given an identity, and you could verify you're connected to the right peer
10:20 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: what?
10:20 < sipa> but this wouldn't be a publicly-observable identity, and not something that is rumoured across the network
10:20 < yanmaani> how does having some trusted nodes help you wit hthat
10:21 < sipa> it's so you can have secure connections with other nodes you trust, because e.g. you run them yourself, or you know who does
10:21 < sipa> but there would be no way to tell what the identity of a node is, unless you already know it
10:22 < yanmaani> Basically, what you are proposing is extremely complex, and there's no good reason for it to overlap with the existing system
10:22 < CubicEarth> yeah, turning on a node ID should not be default and be totally optional
10:22 < yanmaani> This is a system for nodes to start at 0 and go downwards; that is a system whereby nodes start at 0 and go upwards
10:23 < yanmaani> it doesn't really solve any problems, but it's a lot of code
10:23 < sipa> i'm not worried about the code
10:23 < sipa> i'm worried about giving nodes an identity!
10:23 < CubicEarth> yanmaani: I see the only starting complexity on the bitcoin core side as being a unique node id, and a way to sign blocks and other transmissions as coming from that node
10:24 < yanmaani> Yeah but why? Why do you want to sign "blocks and other transmissions" as coming from some node?
10:24 < yanmaani> What purpose does it serve?
10:24 < sipa> CubicEarth: you mean the miner/tx author node signing?
10:24 < sipa> or just the peer who is sending them to you?
10:24 < CubicEarth> just the peer
10:24 < sipa> okay.
10:24 < yanmaani> why?
10:25 < sipa> if it's a peer you know, this makes perfect sense
10:25 < CubicEarth> yanmaani: simply, because someone might prefer to connect to nodes that have a good and public reputation
10:25 < sipa> but i don't think every peer in the network should be such a peer
10:25 < CubicEarth> sipa: I agree
10:25 < sipa> CubicEarth: that is very scary to me
10:26 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: what
10:26 < sipa> especially if reputation is public
10:26 < sipa> don't trust, verify
10:26 < yanmaani> Why would someone "prefer to connect to nodes that have a good and public reputation"?
10:26 < yanmaani> What problem does this solve?
10:26 < yanmaani> "other, unspecified people might want to do this completely bizarre thing" is, generally speaking, not a great use-case IMO
10:28 < sipa> it's a fine line - i can see how the current ip address management / discouragement system has some similarities with a reputation/identity system
10:28 < sipa> and to a very weak extent, it is, inevitably
10:30 < CubicEarth> reputations and trust can yield benefits and efficiency in certain circumstances
10:30 < yanmaani> What are these "certain circumstances"?
10:30 < CubicEarth> but obviously we don't want the system to become dependent on such things
10:30 < yanmaani> What are these "benefits and efficiency"?
10:31 < sipa> yanmaani: you could imagine it benefitting DoS protections
10:31 < yanmaani> sipa: Well, the current system already protects against "unintentional DoS"
10:32 < yanmaani> and no ban system will protect against "we rent a botnet and send 1 Gb of junk UDP his way"
10:32 < yanmaani> maybe it'd be useful for vague tor stuff, but then I think a simple PoW system would be far easier
10:33 < CubicEarth> sipa, I seem to remember you telling me long ago that some of the delays in block fetching had to do with DoS protections... like if my node requests a block from a peer, and that peer doesn't deliver the block, my node waits for quite a long time before asking another node
10:33 < sipa> CubicEarth: that's a bandwidth tradeoff
10:33 < yanmaani> sipa: Couldn't you do something like BitTorrent?
10:34 < sipa> wut?
10:34 < yanmaani> Ask for the header and the topmost few levels of the Merkle tree from X nodes at once
10:34 < yanmaani> then ask for chunk #1, #2, ... from different nodes
10:34 < yanmaani> (split it up into pieces)
10:34 < sipa> yanmaani: for IBD, we already effectively have that... except the pieces are blocks
10:35 < sipa> and for steady state there is no need, as blocks generally aren't even sent in full due to compact blocks
10:35 < CubicEarth> and I guess I imagine the future where people pay nodes for certain services... so certainly in that case you would want to know who you are paying
10:36 < sipa> CubicEarth: yes, but it doesn't require the entire world to build a reputation system
10:36 < sipa> it just means you want to check you're connected to the right node
10:37 < CubicEarth> I am mostly thinking that some people / institutions might want to host awesome nodes and do a very good job at it, and have a desire for other people to know what is coming from their node
10:37 < sipa> CubicEarth: that makes perfect sense
10:37 < sipa> but what that needs is an authentication system, not (public) identities or reputation
10:38 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: that doesn't need any of the web of trust stuff now does it?
10:38 < yanmaani> "connect to asdasdasd.onion, we run it, here's our signature"
10:39 < CubicEarth> to both of your points: crowd sourcing info on that node's behavior could also be desirable. "My node is awesome, and look, everyone else thinks so too"
10:39 < sipa> CubicEarth: nack
10:39 < CubicEarth> :(
10:39 < sipa> don't trust, verify
10:40 < sipa> reputation systems lead to sybil attacks
10:40 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: There is a lot of "could" and "somebody" in this proposal
10:40 < sipa> (in the original meaning of sybil attacks: someone pretending to be lots of good identities, to later exploit it)
10:40 < yanmaani> there is not any good reason given for it, other than "It seems fun! Let's do it!"
10:40 < yanmaani> which is, to be blunt, not a very good reason
10:40 < sipa> CubicEarth: maybe more fundamentally: there is no such thing as publicly-verifiable "good" behavior of nodes
10:42 < CubicEarth> sipa: if a peer signed a block, wouldn't sending a bad block be bad behavior? And sending a valid block be good behavior?
10:42 < sipa> CubicEarth: why do you need them to sign it? you see who it's coming from already
10:42 < yanmaani> sipa: His idea is that you might preent it
10:42 < sipa> you only want to sign it, so it can be tied to a public identity
10:43 < sipa> and that identity is the problem
10:43 < yanmaani> "key X signs block Y, block Y is bad, ergo key X is bad"
10:44 < sipa> CubicEarth: put yet differently, if you want to trust a peer more than another, it should be because of an external reason, like "i know who runs this", or "i have a contract with them and i'll sue if they misbehave"
10:44 < sipa> not "they acted well in the past"
10:45 < CubicEarth> sipa: They are almost the same thing
10:45 < sipa> they absolutely aren't
10:45 < sipa> automating it based on observable behavior is exploitable
10:46 < sipa> behave extra-well, and get the network graph biased towards you
10:46 < CubicEarth> Sipa: (Sipa) - a person who is known, and liked, which is based on your past behavior
10:46 < sipa> CubicEarth: i am not a node
10:46 < sipa> of course the human world relies on reputation
10:50 < CubicEarth> the question then seems to be if we want to encourage any trust to be direct, based on just two parties, or if it is desirable to make it easy for people to build external reputation services
10:50 < CubicEarth> people love to build the latter for anything they can...
10:50 < sipa> this discussion makes me reconsider if (private) authentication should be added at all :)
10:51 < sipa> if you can't seem to distinguish a desire to build authentication based on pre-existing trust relations in the real world, from automatically trusting things that look like they have good behavior... i fear it will be abused
10:52 < CubicEarth> it's just a question of who is doing the looking, and where you see the bigger risk. it's the background check question, basically
10:52 < sipa> no, it's not a background check
10:53 < sipa> e.g. me connecting to another node i run myself, and trusting it more, is perfectly reasonable, regardless of how that node has behaved in the past
10:53 < CubicEarth> I am conflating nodes and people because people run nodes... I see trusting the node as trusting the person running it
10:53 < sipa> no, that's not what i'm pointing out
10:54 < CubicEarth> if it's your own second node... sure
10:54 < sipa> i am suggesting that trusting a node shouldn't based on its past behavior
10:54 < sipa> or not only
10:54 < sipa> because if it is, that creates an avenue for later misbehavior
10:54 < sipa> or chokepoints...
10:55 < CubicEarth> efficiency / security tradeoff?
10:55 < sipa> e.g. i may want to create a connection to a friend of mine, even if his node is incompetently run
10:55 < sipa> because i trust him to not be part of a statewide botnet attack
10:56 < sipa> but a behavior based reputation cannot account for this
10:57 < sipa> you also may want to pay a service to get higher-bandwidth/lower-latency access, or to get access to certain optional protocol features (some index lookup, say)... which means you may want to be sure you're connected to them
10:57 < sipa> and if they misbehave, you'll stop using the service, or sue them
10:58 < sipa> but again, that's not something a publicly observable behavior-based reputation can catch
10:58 < CubicEarth> when I say the 'background check' thing... perhaps it turns out that a node that many people trust has occasionally been abusing that trust. It would almost serve as a fraud proof, so someone could come forward the community that the person / entity has been abusing the trust people gave to it
10:58 < sipa> sigh
10:58 < sipa> i'm done with this discussion
10:58 < sipa> it's going in circles
10:59 < CubicEarth> yes
10:59 < CubicEarth> there's an inherent tension in the issue that is unsolvable
10:59 < sipa> yes, you believe identities are a good thing
10:59 < sipa> i think they're a bad thing to be avoided to the extent possible
10:59 < sipa> you seem to want to embrace them
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11:02 < CubicEarth> they are a tool, and like all tools....
11:05 < CubicEarth> I can accept that people think the potential for abuse outweigh the benefits
11:20 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: For what purpose? What are these alleged benefits?
11:26 < CubicEarth> yanmaani: with lightning, to avoid fund loss, it's important to monitor the chain with no gap of longer than a certain number of blocks
11:26 < CubicEarth> *potential fund loss
11:28 < CubicEarth> maybe the nodes I am connected to get bribed to withhold blocks for a while
11:30 < yanmaani> CubicEarth: just add more nodes lol, or use simple statistical analysis
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11:31 < CubicEarth> yanmaani: yes, there is always another way
11:33 < yanmaani> Just desperately ask more nodes if it's too slow. But you've just rediscovered the eclipse attack
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