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[~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:07 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:10 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-213-127-101-220.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:15 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-213-127-101-220.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:20 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:28 < treyzania> Does anyone know if there's been any work on using OP_CTV to make the opendime concept scale better by rolling up the funding of a whole bunch of opendimes into a single utxo? 10:28 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-spxuxpieprnierps] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:30 < BlueMatt> would probably be more interesting to phrase the question as "how would we design a covanent soft fork to accomplish X" instead of "how would we accomplish X with OP_CTV" 10:36 -!- arowser [~arowser1@192.69.88.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36 -!- arowser [~arowser1@192.69.88.248.16clouds.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 < treyzania> I think the similarities are enough that CTV as-is would work fine. Instead of, say, an exchange wanting to send to a bunch of withdrawal addresses, you have a vendor that wants to deposit into a bunch of funding addresses from the opendimes. 10:49 < treyzania> I'm wondering if anyone has worked out how to make that practical 10:50 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@2601:645:c200:f539:1d25:1a55:e644:5c4d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:53 < BlueMatt> I really dont think CTV makes sense without a lot of answering of "if we want to do X, how would we design a soft-fork covanent system". So far the only thing I've seen is a lot of "here's how you can do it, in some kinda-effecient way with CTV", not "here's how you'd do it". So I mention the other question format as an exercise both in design and also as an exercise in figuring out what types of covanent designs bitcoin protocol 10:53 < BlueMatt> should be moving towards 10:57 < jeremyrubin> OTOH, CTV does perfectly support what you're asking for with provisioning a huge number of open dimes 10:59 < jeremyrubin> w.r.t. here's how you can do it vs here's how you you do it, it's because CTV is flexible enough to support doing things in more than one way 10:59 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00 -!- Toflar [~Toflar@37.120.203.188] has quit [] 11:00 < jeremyrubin> it's generally very hard to come up with a single simple primitive that supports a litany of designs. If you wanted bespoke designs per contract then you could probably be more efficient? But often times that's not even the case 11:01 < jeremyrubin> treyzania: you just want batch payments for the dimes https://utxos.org/uses/scaling/ 11:02 < BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: I dont think I said it was easy, I only said that we should have a list of potential use-cases and compare a few potential designs before we start talking about soft forking :) 11:02 < jeremyrubin> Here's the Sapio code for generating it https://gist.github.com/JeremyRubin/b3ea45308f7cd8dfa0b07bed7f43c0f0 11:03 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:03 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: you can see https://utxos.org/alternatives/ which compares a decent chunk of alternative designs presented over the years 11:04 -!- PaulTroo_ [~paultroon@h-5-150-248-150.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04 < treyzania> the reason for bringing it up is to avoid creating tons of utxos when funding the opendimes that would just sit there for an extended period of time, or perhaps forever if the opendime is lost/destroyed 11:04 < jeremyrubin> There's also https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.16714 11:04 < treyzania> so while batching would make it *cheaper* to fund it wouldn't avoid that problem 11:05 < treyzania> ooooh that looks like an interesting paper 11:05 < kanzure> let us know if you have any questions 11:06 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-11-169.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06 < jeremyrubin> treyzania: yep CTV should mostly fix this issue; the only wrinkle is you need to store the redemption transactions *somewhere* (either on device or off) 11:07 < jeremyrubin> Does opendime have any writeable storage? 11:08 -!- PaulTroo_ [~paultroon@h-5-150-248-150.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:09 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 < treyzania> I don't believe it has any arbitrary block storage for the host to use, but it wouldn't be impossible to implement something specific for using CTV 11:09 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: Procedurally, I'm not sure if we do that in Bitcoin much TBH (come up with concrete applications and then compare tech alternatives). E.g., was that process followed with Taproot? AFAIK not really... but if there's a resource for that happy to look 11:10 < jeremyrubin> I agree the epistemology is stronger though 11:10 < BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: its pretty different when we're talking about absolutely the biggest change to bitcoin's featureset ever :) 11:10 < BlueMatt> I want Covanents, not covanents :p 11:10 < jeremyrubin> ? 11:11 < BlueMatt> I mean like, covanents is a big deal in terms of bitcoin featureset, and unlike segwit and taproot which are relatively straightforward changes which address current shortcomings 11:12 < jeremyrubin> I think schnorr is a bigger deal than CTV 11:12 < treyzania> I want sighash_noinput :) 11:13 < BlueMatt> eh, schnorr isnt bigger than covanents. ctv may be cut down covanents, but if we're gonna do covanents, lets do real, feature-full covanents. 11:13 < jeremyrubin> I don't agree 11:13 < sipa> what does that mean? 11:13 < jeremyrubin> If you want that then just focus on simplicity 11:13 < jeremyrubin> sipa: who are you responding to? 11:14 < sipa> there is no limit to what "feature full" can mean in terms of covenants 11:14 < BlueMatt> sure, but doesnt mean you target a deliberately limited version 11:14 < BlueMatt> I dont feel like there's really been that much exploration of how to do simple but more powerful covanents 11:14 < jeremyrubin> Actually Bram has a solid explanation of why you want CTV even if you had more complex ones 11:14 < jeremyrubin> let me dig it up :) 11:14 < sipa> BlueMatt: do you have any specific things in mind? 11:15 < jeremyrubin> https://twitter.com/bramcohen/status/1224823869933899776 11:15 < BlueMatt> ie the space of possible covanent soft forks is relatively unexplored, and should probably be explored so we have a longer-term vision in mind before committing to a direction 11:15 < sipa> BlueMatt: i agree with that in general 11:15 < BlueMatt> sipa: there's a few use-cases for covanents that i think are pretty critical 11:15 < sipa> but it's also kind of hard to just say "more exploration is needed", without offering specific things that are unexplored 11:16 < BlueMatt> but, its totally possible we explore a bunch and then end up loving ctv :) 11:16 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: do you want Sapio access to play with the ecosystem I'm trying to get together? 11:16 < jeremyrubin> It's still gross code so not public yet, but happy to add anyone here 11:16 < BlueMatt> yea, true. I definitely mentioned a few previously in discussions with jeremyrubin. I think he came up with some ideas for how to do it but they required longer-term secondary soft forks 11:16 < BlueMatt> ie long-term vision :) 11:16 < sipa> BlueMatt: i'm personally rather hesitant about covenants features in general, even very limited ones - but i fear that's not a battle i will win (and not even sure i want to; the use cases are very appealing) 11:17 < jeremyrubin> Yes the long term is there; CTV is actually designed to accrue features with the addition of e.g. OP_CAT 11:17 < jeremyrubin> (or shastream) 11:17 < sipa> but if we agree that scripts-that-can-introspect-their-own-semantics are a good idea, i don't really see the problem with doing something simple and iterating either 11:17 < BlueMatt> sipa: yea....i dunno, i kinda gave up on that after a while. and the use-cases seem to be to be pretty critical from a practical scalability perspective 11:18 < sipa> especially given that the potential design space is pretty much unlimited, you need to pick something to focus on first 11:19 < BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: right, but thats a somewhat awkward design. what if we wanted to start from scratch with a set of features to capture the set of features we want instead of making it work with ctv? :p 11:19 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: from what I recall when we did the walkthrough on payment pools in January we ended back at needing CTV again ;) 11:19 < BlueMatt> sipa: yep, totally. i just worry that without some level of competing designs or at least well-described long-term vision for the sets of things we want, we're going down a path we'll have to change from at some point 11:20 < sipa> BlueMatt: that's certainly a useful thing to consider 11:20 < sipa> but again, being specific would be very helpful 11:20 < BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: huh? no, i think we ended up with you coming up with a way of doing it with ctv that i was kinda ok with, but wasnt well specified and required a second soft fork which felt awkward 11:20 -!- scf-1 [~scf-1@178.162.209.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 < BlueMatt> yep, agreed sipa 11:20 < BlueMatt> definitely not fair to just say "keep researching" as an objection 11:21 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: your design required like 3 new other opcodes anyways though, so it didn't seem weird 11:21 < jeremyrubin> (v.s. CTV-native payment pool design which just requires CTV) 11:21 < BlueMatt> hmm, I dont believe it requried 3 new opcodes which were directly covanents. iirc it was more of a few general purpose things (like bit sets or hash trees), plus a simple covanents thing which was a bit more general than ctv 11:22 < treyzania> is there a writeup on that design somewhere? 11:22 < jeremyrubin> The gleb/riard design is basically what Matt and I discussed, it's on the mailing list 11:22 < jeremyrubin> I responded with the CTV-native design 11:23 < treyzania> will check up on that, thanks 11:23 < jeremyrubin> Anyways, the way CTV is set up there's a version flag so you can add new hashtypes and covenants later on down the line... I don't think it's awful if we end up supporting > 1 covenant-template type in the future. And a more general purpose thing will have a different set of use cases than a simpler thing (see bram's thread). 11:23 < sipa> fwiw, one generic concern i had with covenant like structures, is that it breaks "generic coinjoinability" i.e. the ability for any two arbitrary independently created outputs to be spendable together in one transaction (which i feel breaking would be like a "being able to send back to input address" kind of yuck)... it turns out, bitcoin already has that, since OP_CLTV 11:24 < sipa> which was hugely surprising to me 11:24 < sipa> if you have an output that needs a blockheight CLTV, and another output that needs a timelock CLTV, they cannot be spent in the same transaction 11:24 < jeremyrubin> I thought cltv has > semantics? 11:24 * BlueMatt -> dealing with family members in hospital and quarantine rules 11:24 < BlueMatt> see y'all later 11:25 < sipa> jeremyrubin: orthongonal 11:25 < jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: good luck, hope fam is OK 11:25 < BlueMatt> yea, alright, just, you know, dont really want to spend a weekend in the hospital right now 11:25 < sipa> BlueMatt: be safe, and wish them well 11:26 < sipa> jeremyrubin: there is only one nLockTime field in a transaction, which cannot be simultaneously a height and a timestamp 11:26 < jeremyrubin> Oh right, yes. 11:26 < jeremyrubin> I have run up against this before 11:26 < jeremyrubin> it's also annoying that within a single script you can't do both 11:26 < sipa> there could be a "per-input nlocktime" annex 11:26 < sipa> which would solve that 11:26 < jeremyrubin> to make powswap.com work you need to do something with either relative time and absolute height or vice versa 11:27 < jeremyrubin> but you can't do both relative at the same time which is annoying 11:27 < jeremyrubin> ideally we'd have any number of timelocks independently allowed 11:28 < jeremyrubin> The hack for seqeuence and nLockTime is really an artifact for old miners to handle it correctly right 11:28 < sipa> yeah, i think this is a pretty minor thing in practice- you pick your stuff to be either height based or time based, and you can't mix things... 11:28 < sipa> is it? 11:28 < sipa> i don't actually know 11:28 < jeremyrubin> I think so! 11:28 < jeremyrubin> It was rules to be compatible with mempool policy 11:28 < sipa> it sounds plausible 11:29 < jeremyrubin> so that evictions and stuff during reorg works correctly 11:30 < sipa> i don't think so 11:30 < jeremyrubin> I think it's also something about picking an absolute value v.s. just comitting 11:30 < sipa> time-based nLockTime was added in 0.1.6 11:30 < sipa> super early 11:30 < jeremyrubin> ah ok -- the policies may have been in consensus already 11:31 < sipa> and in 0.1.5, it wasn't even consensus 11:31 < jeremyrubin> my point is more that it was to reuse the mechanism already there 11:31 < jeremyrubin> even though there is no hard reason to 11:31 < jeremyrubin> other than not writing new mempool code 11:31 < sipa> i suspect it was more a matter of not needing to add a new field 11:31 < jeremyrubin> You wouldn't need to add a new field to the TX though for CLTV which doesn't check the nlocktime 11:32 < jeremyrubin> CLTV could read the block height during validation 11:32 < jeremyrubin> from the context of tx execution instead of the context of the tx's set nLockTime 11:33 < sipa> CLTV was 5.5 years after the introduction of consensus-critical height-or-time nLockTime 11:33 < sipa> oh, lol, no 11:34 < sipa> if you mean that OP_CLTV could have been reading block height directly, you're right, that would indeed not have that problem... but that would be ridiculous 11:34 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 < jeremyrubin> that is exactly what I mean 11:35 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35 < sipa> the right way to do it would have been to add a per-input nLockTime (or even split height/time) field, and then make OP_CTLV assert on that 11:35 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 < jeremyrubin> Sure, there's an argument in favor of that w.r.t. signing 11:36 < jeremyrubin> so that your later signers can set those values as desired 11:36 < jeremyrubin> anyways this is a tangent :) 11:37 < jeremyrubin> CTV does kinda make an additional break of this property. How critical is that though? 11:37 < sipa> i don't know 11:38 < sipa> it's one of the reasons i don't like covenants :) 11:38 < jeremyrubin> This is similarly broken if I sign an anyonecanpay and you sign an anyonecanpay with diff outputs 11:38 < jeremyrubin> we can't collapse that tx into one 11:38 < jeremyrubin> I agree with full tx introspection it's a *lot* worse 11:38 < jeremyrubin> That's why CTV as is does no introspection of the tx, just a static commitment 11:39 < jeremyrubin> I agree that's way riskier 11:39 < jeremyrubin> I think it also points to a flaw with BlueMatt's epistemological proposal 11:40 < jeremyrubin> The right way to do Bitcoin development may be to find a primitive you think is *safe* and then figure out if you can do good applications with it too. 11:40 < sipa> eh, i don't agree with that 11:40 < jeremyrubin> V.s. finding something that does a handful of apps you like and then figure out if it's safe 11:43 < jeremyrubin> I also do want to make clear (for anyone reading along here) that CTV was not "technology in search of problem", I came up with it originally specifically to make batched payments more efficient and several other use cases... 11:43 < jeremyrubin> so CTV itself wouldn't even pass the prior test i mentioned 11:44 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:45 < jeremyrubin> anyways, if anyone has a list of critical and neccessary covenant applications share them I guess? 11:45 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 < jeremyrubin> So far I can think of things that I'd want to see: 11:50 < jeremyrubin> 1) Scalable Batching 11:50 < jeremyrubin> 2) Non-Interactive Lightning Channel Opens 11:50 < jeremyrubin> 3) Payment Pool Type Solution 11:50 < jeremyrubin> 4) Programmable Vault Contracts 11:51 < jeremyrubin> 5) The Liquid Vault I presented here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vDuttlImPc 11:51 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 < jeremyrubin> 6) On chain make/take contracts with either fixed or dynamic participant set (e.g., open an oracle option contract and anyone can take the other side if they pay premium) 11:53 < jeremyrubin> 7) Subscription contract (e.g., similar to https://sablier.finance/) 11:54 < jeremyrubin> 8) On-Chain Tic-Tac-Toe 11:55 < jeremyrubin> 9) Trustless Escrow (e.g., either 2 of 2 multisig or a default return-to-sender) 11:56 < jeremyrubin> Anything else people would be interested in seeing fleshed out? 11:57 < jeremyrubin> I guess under 4), I'm also including things like annuities, but to make it more explicit: 11:57 < jeremyrubin> 10) Annuities 11:57 < jeremyrubin> 11) Will & Testament contracts 11:58 < jeremyrubin> 12) undo-send send + confirm payments, or return to sender 12:00 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:25 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-11-169.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:29 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:29 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-11-169.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05 -!- PaulTroo_ [~paultroon@h-5-150-248-150.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- PaulTroo_ [~paultroon@h-5-150-248-150.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12 -!- laptop [~laptop@85-195-244-64.fiber7.init7.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:17 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:28 -!- laptop [~laptop@85-195-244-64.fiber7.init7.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30 -!- alferz [~alferz@212.102.35.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30 -!- alferz [~alferz@212.102.35.103] has quit [Changing host] 13:30 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:42 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:c0e8:1e43:d35:4272] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- scf-1 [~scf-1@178.162.209.171] has quit [] 14:03 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:16 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21 -!- ndrst1 [~ndrst@217.146.82.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:22 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:33 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:51 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:54 -!- Guyver2_ [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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