--- Log opened Mon Sep 07 00:00:13 2020 00:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:02 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:10d0:6feb:c200:ae66] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:04 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f0af:c014:d00a:16a5] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:06 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:10 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- marcoagner [~user@2001:8a0:6a45:1900:2fd7:e0f0:d356:dd70] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:29 -!- Antonet [~Antonet@178.162.204.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:32 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:35 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:26 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:41 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:46 -!- alice7 [5ae3db84@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.90.227.219.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58 < alice7> Thoughts on Cairo by StarkWare? They claim that it scales general computation quite a bit. Could possible reduce both space/tx and cpu/tx as well as high level complexity for expressive contracts. 02:00 -!- Antonet [~Antonet@178.162.204.214] has quit [] 02:34 < alice7> What's the strongest argument against replacing on-chain pk crypto storage/verification with transparent zkps leveraging the PCP theorem? 02:35 < zmnscpxj_> most such systems require proofs much larger than 64 bytes of signature 02:35 < alice7> on proof can contain multiple txs though? 02:35 < alice7> *one 02:36 < zmnscpxj_> I have one proof that contains A, B, C, another proof that contains B, C, D, E, and yet another proof that contains C, D, E, F, G, can I merge them trivially? 02:36 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-240-159.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:38 < alice7> To the best of my understanding, not with Starks. That would require something like Halo2? But regardless, at scale, space is used more efficiently. 02:38 < zmnscpxj_> yes, but how do you handle mempools? 02:38 < sipa> you still need to transfer state uodates 02:39 < zmnscpxj_> most of the bandwidth use of a fullnode is really tx relay 02:39 < zmnscpxj_> not very compressible 02:39 < sipa> i can imagine something where a miner creates an aggregate proof that says "i have verified all the transactions in this block" 02:39 < sipa> which would replace the signatures, with a single, large proof 02:40 < alice7> yes, that's what I'm imagining too 02:40 < zmnscpxj_> but transferring individual txes would still require individual per-tx signatures at least, if my understanding is correct 02:40 < sipa> but signatures aren't an overwhelming majority of the data 02:40 < sipa> so it's a small constant factor data at best 02:40 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-240-159.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:40 < zmnscpxj_> ah, most of it is in prevouts and scriptPubKeys? 02:41 < sipa> not most 02:41 < zmnscpxj_> what is the typical data then? 02:41 < sipa> even if signatures are say 60%,it's a 2.5x bandwidth gain at best 02:41 < zmnscpxj_> ah 02:41 < zmnscpxj_> right 02:41 < sipa> it may be a bigger cpu gain than that 02:41 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@x2e726e45.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:41 < sipa> but afaik the cost of constructing these proofs is huge... seconds, minutes 02:42 < zmnscpxj_> Not going to work for miners 02:42 < sipa> if they'rw feasible to make backward compatible at all 02:43 < alice7> construction cost for proofs shouldn't be a problem for miners? 02:44 < sipa> blocks must be constructible in... milliseconds ideally 02:44 < sipa> maybe 10s or 100s of them 02:44 < alice7> some fee construction should aline incentives 02:44 < alice7> *align 02:44 < zmnscpxj_> if you increase the fee/weight, then what would be the point? 02:45 < alice7> thinking miners receive fees for generating proofs 02:45 < sipa> once you reach seconds, you get nontrivial losses from forks 02:45 < zmnscpxj_> in practice the whole point of doing this kind of things is to reduce fees for users 02:45 < zmnscpxj_> so if you are going to increase the fees anyway, no user will run that softfork. 02:46 < alice7> as long as the capacity gain is sufficient, incentives should reduce latency of proof generation long term. overall, fee/tx should be reduced 02:47 < sipa> if the proof takes a minute (say), it's completely infeasible 02:47 < sipa> i don't see what fees can compensate for that 02:47 < alice7> shouldn't take minutes 02:47 < zmnscpxj_> we could make blocks slower, like say every 100 minutes instead 02:47 < zmnscpxj_> which lowers your tps anyway, so.... 02:48 < sipa> haha 02:48 < alice7> for intergalactic transfers ;) 02:49 < alice7> proof generation time is only a function of cpu tho, so it mostly depends on how much you spend on hardware 02:50 < zmnscpxj_> reducing the amount of money I can spend on raw mining hashpower 02:50 < sipa> maybe, i'm not familiar enough with this in particular 02:51 < sipa> not all of these proof genrration techniques are equally parallellizable 02:52 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-240-159.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:53 < sipa> i think these ZKP techniques may one day prove useful, but more likely in a setting like a statechain/lightning thing, where a large update needs to be pushed on-chain 02:54 < sipa> but they're all dumped as one transaction, with a proof that it is actually a correct aggregate of a huge number of offchain txn 02:55 < alice7> yes, latency increase would make off-chain architecture even more relevant 02:56 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-240-159.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 < zmnscpxj_> sipa: Potentially allowing for updates even if not all the participants are online, we hope? 02:56 < sipa> as in that case there is nothing latency critical 02:56 -!- sankarshan1 [~sankarsha@195.206.169.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 < alice7> exactly 02:56 < zmnscpxj_> the future is offchain 02:59 < sipa> it could already be 02:59 < sipa> we don't know ;) 03:00 < zmnscpxj_> Consider a future where interplanetary commerce is being started. 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