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04:17 < gleb> There's a new paper on transaction relay, they suggest it for some million-tps system, which i don't care of, but the idea seems to be to use carefully-designed 4-byte tx ids, and that saves all the bandwidth.
04:19 < gleb> This approach obviously have limitations in terms of linear scalability(connections), but if put that aside, maybe the short-id design is interesting? I can't understand how their 4-byte IDs can be possibly collision-resistant in an adversarial setting :) Perhaps someone here could get a better idea?
04:19 < gleb> http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~fanl/papers/shrec-socc20.pdf
04:19 < zmnscpxj> first answer that pops to my head is that "carefully-designed" means "assumes non-adversarial setting"
04:21 < gleb> They seem to talk about adv in the middle of Section 4, but I find their description obfuscated...
04:21 < gleb> fwiw it's a peer-reviewed paper at a (supposedly top-tier) non-Bitcoin general systems conference
04:22 < zmnscpxj> okay, will go take a deeper look
04:23 < gleb> Figure 7 anecdotically suggests that they save on transaction-body-bandwidth, which is....impossible? (unless they assume erlay allows a lot of duplicate tx-bodies, which is false)
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04:34 < roconnor> Do txids take up a large fraction of transaction data?
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04:35 < roconnor> I mean, there ought to be at least one signature per input, and signatures are larger than txids.   Figure 7 does look like a 50% reduction in transaction size, which doesn't seem possible
04:40 < roconnor> Glancing through section 5.3 does seem to suggest that they believe earlay is retransmitting transactions.
04:41 < roconnor> I mean, it suggests that they have run earlay and observed this.
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06:22 < gleb> They suggest that their “siphash” approach retransmitting, which is correct because they can’t dedup due to salt. In erlay, that’s not the case
06:22 < gleb> well, in the latest version at least
06:23 < gleb> And they don’t claim it either, yet somehow the graph suggests it
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15:09 < zmnscpxj> gleb: The shortid has a 24-bit FixedBytes and a 8-bit RandomBytes. FixedBytes is a function of the tx, but RandomBytes is a function of the tx and the peers communicating
15:10 < zmnscpxj> gleb: In order for an attacker to block out a target tx, it has to create 256 alternatives that match the FixedBytes
15:11 < zmnscpxj> gleb: But the mechanism they propose will check if there are more than 9 txes that have the same FixedBytes, and will require full 256-bit txids if so
15:12 < zmnscpxj> it does seem to need that peers have some kind of salt they agree on when sharing txids tho
15:14 < zmnscpxj> to my naivete, it seems useful as a replacement for the short-ids in a compactblocks setting but not for compressing the actual prev-txids in txes, as I expect Bitcoin to have far more than 9 * 16,777,216 txes already
15:15 < adlai> please take extra care when spelling proper names that are intentional typos of short nouns, e.g. 'erlay' is both a typo and not a typo
15:16  * adlai can't figure out wtf 'earlay' is, other than "too early to proofread"
15:19 < zmnscpxj> adlai: a confused wasp that is supposed to lay eggs on ears, but is now laying ears on eggs?
15:20 < zmnscpxj> OTOH the UTXO set is about 68million or so, and there are fewer referrable txes than that, so maybe it would work to replace prev-txids with these short-ids as well?
15:21 < adlai> what is the long-term prognosis on the complexity of unspent fragmentation?
15:22 < zmnscpxj> personally I hope channel factories become a thing and a lot of utxos have shared ownership
15:22 < adlai> e.g., "By 2145, there should be no fewer than seventy billion trillions of transacting devices, coordinating their actions using no more than seven million fragments of digital stuff"
15:24  * adlai may have thinkoed out a few orders of magnitude; the question remains, arguably unanswerable in a politely logged channel before, say, 2130
15:25 < zmnscpxj> yes, too many years out, insufficient data to compute reasonable answer
15:25 < adlai> reasonable answers are both computable and impolite
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15:55 < smrtz> Heyo! I'm pretty new to cryptogrophy, but trying to wrap my head around Threshold signatures vs Aggregate signatures. I'm trying to figure out if an aggregate signature allows a verifier with all public keys to determine which keys were used, and (roughly) how much smaller it would be then a unique detached signature for each signing key pair.
15:56 < zmnscpxj> ideally a threshold signature *is* an aggregate of k signers, but that is not how it is implemented in Bitcoin today
15:57 < smrtz> I think my biggest issue is poor resources, This says MuSig is for threshold sigs: https://blockstream.com/2019/02/18/en-musig-a-new-multisignature-standard/ but this says it's for aggregate sigs: https://medium.com/@Wisdom_Chain/aggregate-signature-of-wisdom-chain-document-knowledge-base-f18623d51d8b
15:57 < zmnscpxj> an aggregate signature would be just 1 signature instead of k (or n) detached signatures
15:57 < zmnscpxj> MuSig works easiest for aggregate sigs
15:57 < zmnscpxj> to implement threshold, you need an extra setup step
15:57 < zmnscpxj> that is not described in the MuSig paper
15:57 < zmnscpxj> but if you do the extra setup step
15:58 < zmnscpxj> then the MuSig proposal will work just as well with threshold
15:58 < smrtz> What's the name of that extra setup step? I'd like to learn more about it.
15:58 < zmnscpxj> verifiable secret sharing
15:58 < zmnscpxj> I am ignorant of its details other than name
15:58 < zmnscpxj> it is basically shamir secret sharing, but done in a multiparty setting with zero-knowledge and other buzzwords
15:59 < smrtz> Ahh, finally a term I actually understand.
15:59 < smrtz> Shamir Secret Sharing, I have basically no understanding of ZK stuff.
16:00 < zmnscpxj> problem of Shamir Secret Sharing is that one of the devices learns a privkey that is equivalent to the entire k-of-n, in order to generate the pubkey
16:00 < zmnscpxj> verifiable secret sharing just works with pubkeys
16:00 < zmnscpxj> I think
16:00 < zmnscpxj> not sure
16:01 < zmnscpxj> andytoshi should know, but maybe he is afk
16:01 < smrtz> So, if I wanted to consolidate a set of detached sigs into a smaller single object, and retain the ability to determine which secret keys were involved, neither threshold or aggregate would work for me?
16:01 < zmnscpxj> no
16:01 < zmnscpxj> you need to coordinate their R
16:02 < zmnscpxj> so you cannot even do that even without the ability to determine whose pubkeys were used
16:02 < smrtz> Their R?
16:03 < smrtz> Is an aggregate or threshold signature not smaller than the sum of all individual signatures?
16:03 < zmnscpxj> signatures have an R and an s
16:03 < zmnscpxj> (or sometimes an e or an s)
16:04 < zmnscpxj> to get an aggregate signature, all signers have to agree on and use the same R
16:04 < zmnscpxj> and they sum up their s
16:06 < smrtz> Hmm, thanks.
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16:11 < smrtz> My actual goal is to have a system of `i` key pairs, where `j` signers agree on a file, and cooperate to create a single, small signature. The verifier needs to be able to verify that at least %(`i`/2+1) signers were involved, and I'd like to be able to verify which signers they were.  It seems like I'm going down the wrong method with
16:11 < smrtz> aggregate/threshold sigs?
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17:48 < zmnscpxj> smrtz: if this is a k-of-n, why not just make multiple k-of-k pubkeys, any of which you would consider as valid?
17:48 < zmnscpxj> e.g. you want any 2-of-3 as valid, just make 3x 2-of-2s
17:48 < zmnscpxj> and which pubkey it validates with lets you know which 2 made the signature
17:48 < zmnscpxj> ?
17:49 < zmnscpxj> this lets you skip the verifiable shamir sharing to generate a single k-of-n pubkey as well
17:50 < zmnscpxj> for example, you have a signing groupfof A, B, and C, you want to have at least 2 of the signers agree on a file.
17:50 < zmnscpxj> You then create using the MuSig-recommended algo, the A+B pubkey, B+C pubkey, and A+C pubkey
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 09 00:00:41 2020