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timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20 -!- oerjan [~oerjan@s91904426.blix.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:27 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:34 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-128-69-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-128-69-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:36 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:38 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:42 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.162.114] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:04 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.162.114] has quit [Client Quit] 06:04 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.162.114] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 -!- asoltys [~root@s207-81-214-2.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:28 -!- sr_gi2 [~sr_gi@static-128-69-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:28 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-128-69-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 06:28 -!- corollari__ [sid405633@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kxzrsmsgraquiztk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:29 -!- ryan-c [ryan-c@znc.rya.nc] has quit [Quit: znc] 06:29 -!- sr_gi2 is now known as sr_gi 06:29 -!- ryan-c [ryan-c@znc.rya.nc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:29 -!- justinmoon [~quassel@157.245.122.126] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 06:30 -!- corollari__ [sid405633@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mmtqtinsxduvodfk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:31 -!- justinmoon [~quassel@157.245.122.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 -!- jesseposner [~jesse@98.37.146.62] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:52 -!- jesseposner [~jesse@98.37.146.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:53 -!- oerjan [~oerjan@s91904426.blix.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58 < jtimon> so there's people asking me about CT 06:59 < jtimon> did we ever get to informational security on inflation and computational on the privacy? 06:59 < zmnscpxj_> I believe with ElGamal commitments yes? 07:00 < zmnscpxj_> "just" substitute ElGamal for the Pedersen commitments 07:00 < zmnscpxj_> <--- not a real cryptographer, just parrots what he reads 07:00 < jtimon> nice, and performance wise, is it much worse than with peterson commitments? 07:00 < zmnscpxj_> no idea 07:00 < jtimon> yeah, well, me neither 07:00 < zmnscpxj_> it "just" adds an extra R point 07:01 < zmnscpxj_> but with computational on the privacy, that means a QC break reveals historical information, which you might not want getting leaked either 07:01 < jtimon> not sure how that translates into performance, but thanks 07:01 < zmnscpxj_> not really performance, but loss of historical privacy can put ex-owners at risk 07:01 < jtimon> well, it's much better than QC breaking the inflation, isn't it? 07:01 -!- b_b1 [~b_b@185.244.214.217] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 < jtimon> and they proved you can't have both at once IIRC 07:02 < zmnscpxj_> a possible deployment would be to "wall off" the CT part of the blockchain into a separate extension block 07:02 < jtimon> why? 07:02 < zmnscpxj_> everything in the CT part of the blockchain is in a "single" "anyone" can spend on the public part 07:02 < zmnscpxj_> to limit the inflation on the public part 07:02 < jtimon> why not just add it as a sf to bitcoin mainnet? 07:02 < zmnscpxj_> that *is* one way to softfork it in 07:03 < jtimon> why not just add it as a SF to mainnet with elgammal? 07:03 < jtimon> no, you know what I mean, with no extensio block thingy 07:03 < zmnscpxj_> how would you be back-compatible with nodes that insist every UTXO has to have a publicly-known amount? 07:04 < zmnscpxj_> you have to hide the CT from old nodes 07:04 < zmnscpxj_> easiest way is to split off the CT bits and aggregate the value in all CT UTXOS as a "single" "anyone" can spend UTXO 07:04 < jtimon> well, ok, so it's just "extension blocks" in the same sense segwit is? 07:04 < zmnscpxj_> a little 07:05 < zmnscpxj_> except you have a single UTXO in the public part that represents all UTXOs in the CT part 07:05 < zmnscpxj_> which is not how SegWit works, every UTXO in SegWit is also a UTXO in the legacy blockchain 07:05 < kanzure> see computational soundness https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-confidential-transactions/ 07:05 < jtimon> oh, I see 07:05 < jtimon> well, I was thinking of something else by extension blocks, I gues 07:05 < zmnscpxj_> I could be misusing the term 07:06 < jtimon> it's alright, I guess the term has changed its meaning over time 07:07 < jtimon> thanks kanzure 07:07 < zmnscpxj_> aggregating the UTXOs means (1) you hide the exact values of CT UTXOs from older nodes *and* new nodes (2) you can put a cap on the inflation, since you will not allow withdrawal of more than the single UTXO value is 07:07 < jtimon> kanzure: mhmm video unavailable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHPYNZ8i1cU 07:08 < zmnscpxj_> so we can live with Pedersen and at least get information-theoretic historical privacy 07:08 < zmnscpxj_> I believe that is the "best" thinking right now, could be wrong 07:08 < jtimon> zmnscpxj_: oh, I see, that way you get the best of both worlds, kind of 07:08 < zmnscpxj_> yes 07:09 < jtimon> but not really, because let's say we get QC 07:09 < zmnscpxj_> but in case of a quantum break, everyone HODLing long-term in a CT UTXO will find their funds stolen since the backing store will be stolen 07:09 < jtimon> let's say there's 15 M in CT 07:09 < zmnscpxj_> but if say you move some funds over to the CT, non-equal CoinJoin it a few times, and move it back to the public, that should help reduce the traceability 07:09 < jtimon> the cracker takes 15M for him even if there's a 21 hard limit, doesn't he? 07:10 < zmnscpxj_> yes, the entire 15M can be stolen in a QC break 07:10 < zmnscpxj_> so you just use the CT part for what it is good for: doing a bunch of non-equal CoinJoins and then withdrawing back to the public part 07:10 < zmnscpxj_> which limits your risk 07:10 < jtimon> so I think I still prefer elgammal 07:10 < zmnscpxj_> (but lowers your anonymity set LOL) 07:11 < jtimon> yeah, but I think the QC case is way less catastrophic 07:11 < jtimon> specially because I think most funds will eventually move to CT if not all 07:11 < zmnscpxj_> one can argue that for some individuals, getting their funds traced can be *more* catastrophic. dunno 07:11 < jtimon> given there are ways to pay lower fees using CT with schnoor and coinjoin and stuff, no? 07:12 < jtimon> how is it traced worse than stolen? 07:12 < jtimon> perhaps I'm missing an example of such individuals 07:12 < zmnscpxj_> if you can mix it, then *move out* of the CT part into the public part, then you cannot be traced and it cannot be stolen either 07:13 < zmnscpxj_> assuming historical privacy is maintained even in a QC break 07:13 < zmnscpxj_> but if historical privacy is broken in a QC break 07:13 < jtimon> yes, in the QC case all funds in CT gets stolen, no? I thought we already agreed on that 07:13 < zmnscpxj_> then the unequal CoinJoins in the CT historically will now be traceable back into the public part 07:14 < jtimon> yes, yes, I know 07:14 < zmnscpxj_> then the unequal CoinJoins in the CT historically will now be traceable back into the public part 07:14 < zmnscpxj_> so the use-case is: (tainted) public part -> CT convert -> coinjoin with some peoplpe -> CT convert to public -> public part (unlinkable to previous public part) 07:14 < jtimon> but I still don't get why anyone would prefer having their funds traced over having them stolen 07:14 < zmnscpxj_> because of what I mentioned as the use-case 07:15 < zmnscpxj_> jt *cannot* be stolen now, since you keep it in the public part 07:15 < jtimon> no, the 15M in the CT part (in my example) 07:15 < zmnscpxj_> .... we are talking past each other 07:15 < jtimon> even though I think it will be more like 21 M in the CT part 07:15 < jtimon> yeah, it looks like it 07:15 < zmnscpxj_> What I am trying to say is, there will *NOT* be 15M in the CT part 07:16 < jtimon> why not? 07:16 < zmnscpxj_> because people will just pub->CT, coinjoin, CT->pub 07:16 < jtimon> why? 07:16 < zmnscpxj_> so the amount of money in the CT part at any one time will be small 07:16 < jtimon> I think people will prefer to keep it in CT 07:16 < zmnscpxj_> precisely to avoid it getting stolen 07:16 < zmnscpxj_> while still preventing historical correlation 07:17 < zmnscpxj_> even if a QC break occurs, historical coinjoins remain hidden 07:17 < zmnscpxj_> so you still get the best of both worlds 07:17 < jtimon> nah, I don't feel like you're getting the best of both worlds here 07:17 < jtimon> I think I prefer elgammal and 21 M in the CT part 07:18 < zmnscpxj_> because if we go with "move every satoshi into CT", in case of a QC break, it gets you nothing: historical information is now known 07:18 < zmnscpxj_> but you are still maintaining all the big heavy rangeproofs and etc 07:18 < jtimon> I know 07:18 < zmnscpxj_> whereas with Pedersen, you move out of the CT part ASAP, to limit your QC risk 07:18 < zmnscpxj_> while still maintaining a delinking from your previous public part 07:18 < zmnscpxj_> which cannot be broken even with a QC break 07:19 < zmnscpxj_> so you avoid losing your funds 07:19 < queip> doing both CJs in pairs, is not somehow possible, to get both benefits? 07:19 < zmnscpxj_> *and* avoid linking your previous public data 07:20 < jtimon> you don't avoid losing your funds, you just tell people not to have many funs in the CT part in case there's QC 07:20 < zmnscpxj_> yes 07:20 < jtimon> and some people may listen to you 07:20 < zmnscpxj_> *shrug* not everyone listens to "not your keys not your coins" 07:20 < jtimon> I insist that I prefer algamal, I think the tradeoff is better. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree 07:20 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [2e06bafb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.46.6.186.251] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- bitcoin-wizards3 [2e06bafb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.46.6.186.251] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21 < zmnscpxj_> yes, it is another reason why CT is not getting any traction in Bitcoin blockchain I think 07:21 < zmnscpxj_> there are deep disagreements on which has better or worse tradeoffs 07:21 < zmnscpxj_> queip: I think you get the worst of both worlds then 07:22 < jtimon> unless we can get quantum secure computational security for the privacy somehow, perhaps it can be proven that's imporssible, I don't know, or it has already been proven 07:23 < zmnscpxj_> <-- not enough of a mathist to say 07:23 < zmnscpxj_> all I know is that the lattice signature validation equation looks suspiciously like the Schnorr validation equation, but not sure if that means there is an equivalent concept o :linearity" with lattice signatures 07:24 < zmnscpxj_> or homomorphism 07:37 -!- darosior [~darosior@194.36.189.246] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 07:38 < kanzure> jtimon: wow, glad there's a transcript then! 07:42 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:47 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:47 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:53 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- b_b1 [~b_b@185.244.214.217] has quit [] 08:20 -!- robotadam1 [~robotadam@154.13.1.56] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:23 < grubles> 2 08:28 -!- jesseposner [~jesse@98.37.146.62] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34 -!- jesseposner [~jesse@98.37.146.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39 -!- jesseposner [~jesse@98.37.146.62] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- dionyziz [~dionyziz@li1388-195.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2a02:587:6231:9100:8d23:b14:77b2:5372] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2a02:587:6231:9100:8d23:b14:77b2:5372] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:21 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2a02:587:6231:9100:8d23:b14:77b2:5372] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2a02:587:6231:9100:8d23:b14:77b2:5372] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:50 -!- Herka_ [sid58030@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ttrlakloohvxonpv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- ChristopherA____ [sid152849@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzbgfzunfflvtcik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- nejon_ [sid38993@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tfdptfkfagjtjifr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- rich [rich@2600:3c00::f03c:92ff:fe8e:dce6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- jbenet_ [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ujgylwvzkekdyxbi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- harding_ [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe7b:78d1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52 -!- willcl_ark_ [~quassel@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52 -!- windsok_ [~windsok@rarepepe.cash] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:53 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@unaffiliated/jonasschnelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:56 -!- afk|dbarrett [~dbarrett@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::7b:1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Herka, lederstrumpf, Ed0, harding, dbarrett, jbenet, paultroon, windsok, ghost43_, ChristopherA___, (+7 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 09:57 -!- ChristopherA____ is now known as ChristopherA___ 09:57 -!- nejon_ is now known as nejon 09:57 -!- Herka_ is now known as Herka 09:57 -!- afk|dbarrett is now known as dbarrett 09:57 -!- jbenet_ is now known as jbenet 09:57 -!- dbarrett [~dbarrett@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::7b:1] has quit [Changing host] 09:57 -!- dbarrett [~dbarrett@unaffiliated/dbarrett] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:05 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Ed0 10:09 -!- lederstrumpf [lederstrum@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wtmcvredrjaaoywn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18 < jtimon> yeah 10:18 < jtimon> but, I mean, was the video censored? 10:19 < jtimon> they're getting crazzy on censorship lately 10:19 < jtimon> very sad 10:19 < jtimon> I really hope jack dorsey goes to jail, sorry, offtopic 10:20 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@ua-84-216-128-32.bbcust.telenor.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:23 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:34 -!- harding_ is now known as harding 10:35 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:36 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:37 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-128-69-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-128-69-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:40 -!- moneyball__ is now known as moneyball 10:46 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:47 -!- nkuttler [~nkuttler@unaffiliated/nkuttler] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:56 -!- davispuh [~quassel@81.198.227.173] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- robotadam1 [~robotadam@154.13.1.56] has quit [] 11:22 -!- angvp [~angvp@195.206.169.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- angvp is now known as Guest48991 11:23 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@ua-84-216-128-32.bbcust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:37 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@84.216.128.9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- user___ [~user@mail.deeplinkmedia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 < eragmus> @jtimon: The potentially censored video was on YouTube (Google), so Dorsey (Twitter) “did nothing wrong”. 11:54 < jtimon> yeah, in this case it would be youtube, obviously, but it's twitter, alphabet, facebook, microsoft...all of them, no? 11:54 < jtimon> it seems pretty clear to me that dorsey hates free speech, I don't know 11:58 < eragmus> @jtimon: I’m just saying let’s not blame Dorsey for what he didn’t do, that’s all. Plenty that he does do that he can be blamed for ;) 11:59 < eragmus> Also before he goes to jail, he has a right to a fair trial ;) 12:00 -!- user___ [~user@mail.deeplinkmedia.com] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 12:00 < jtimon> sure 12:01 < jtimon> if it's a fair trial, I'm sure he'll go to jail 12:02 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06 -!- jtimon [~quassel@146.228.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:08 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:22 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- jtimon [~quassel@146.228.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:07 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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