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13:38 < gleb> I was recently thinking about the IBD dos issue, where someone can feed us with low-work really-long which we'd take forever to download/verify. I think that's why we have checkpoints right? And the approach is still suboptimal
13:39 < gleb> I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding something and unintentionally spreading fud about checkpoints...
13:40 < pinheadmz> gleb this? https://bcoin.io/papers/bitcoin-chain-expansion.pdf
13:40 < gleb> yeah yeah
13:40 < sipa> well blocks wouldn't be downloaded until you provide the victim with a valid headers chain whose combined cumulative work exceeds the main chain's
13:40 < gleb> sipa: still, headers should be downloaded?
13:40 < sipa> which won't happen until there is actual a hashrate majority cooperating with the attacker
13:40 < sipa> in which case we have bigger problems
13:40 < gleb> I remember suhas tried to do something smart, reverse load or something.
13:40 < sipa> (or really, then they're not an attacker anyway)
13:41 < gleb> I was wondering if this could be done with a snark instead?
13:41 < sipa> gleb: yes, that's possible, but that's what checkpoints exist for
13:41 < sipa> they'd need to branch off past the last checkpoint
13:41 < gleb> A source-of-blocks provides a compact proof that their chain is "legit" whatever that means
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13:41 < gleb> That would allow removing checkpoints and maybe making it more robust.
13:42 < pinheadmz> gleb like, offer the highest header first so you can see how much work it has?
13:42 < sipa> which is a long time ago, but still means a very nontrivial Pow cost for the attacker per block, due to the difficulty that existed at the time
13:42 < pinheadmz> then load headers in reverse until it connects if that value is high enouch
13:42 < sipa> pinheadmz: you can't tell from a header how much work the entire chain has
13:42 < pinheadmz> ah, only the bits target for that one single header
13:43 < sipa> yes, but you can't really make assumptions about the difficulty at any particular point in the future
13:43 < pinheadmz> so you can imagine difficulty going way up and then way down and having a header with an easy target, even though it is the most work chain
13:43 < sipa> except using the max-4x-drop-per-2016-blocks rule
13:43 < gleb> sipa: won't a snark be better approach than checkpoints? Of course they have to be properly designed :)
13:43 < pinheadmz> the paper has a "headers with checkpoints variant" -- It would cost around $1,433,924 USD in mining hardware and electricity to produce 315GB of payload header data in 450 hours with ability to add
13:43 < pinheadmz> additional data at a rate of 315GB per hour for $104 USD
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13:45 < sipa> gleb: long term checkpoints are pretty unsatisfying, but i also don't think there is a real problem today
13:46 < gleb> sipa: yeah sure, I was just thinking of experimenting with zkp and that felt like a might-be-useful problem to solve.
13:46 < gleb> Optional plugin for bitcoin core which does zkp instead of checkpoints
13:48 < gleb> Okay, I guess if someone ever worked on it, you'd probably know and let me know :)
13:49 < sipa> yeah, i think it's an interesting problem
13:49 < sipa> but wouldn't headers-validity of an entire chain be an enormous amount of work to construct a snark for?
13:49 < sipa> 100000s of SHA256s
13:50 < pinheadmz> if you use a zkSNARK would oyu have to implement the bitcoin diff adjust algorithm ?
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13:50 < pinheadmz> ha sipa yeah
13:50 < sipa> that's trivial i think compared with SHA256 :p
13:50 < pinheadmz> right everytime i try to learn about snarks my brain melts around the "write the program in logic gates" etc
13:51 < pinheadmz> like, at that point dosnt it reuire so much human auditing of *that* code that the snarks isnt worth it?
13:51 < pinheadmz> (for omplex problems)
13:51 < sipa> a very quick guesstimate makes me think you'd need over 10 billion multiplication gates in the proof
13:52 < sipa> a stark may be more appropriate
13:52 < pinheadmz> this is the thing that sent me down the rabbit hole: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/100529/proving-two-public-keys-are-derived-from-the-same-seed-without-revealing-the-xp/100535?noredirect=1#comment113986_100535
13:52 < sipa> as it's a long repetition of the exact same operation
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13:54 < gleb> Good to know, thank you for the feedback. I'll think about it now.
13:56 < sipa> pinheadmz: that only needs a few hash operations
13:56 < sipa> pinheadmz: in a snark, if you compute multiple hashes, you need to multiply the gate counts
13:56 < pinheadmz> sipa you dont have to implement ECDSA and bip32 ?
13:57 < pinheadmz> ok i see, keep hash count low, maintain sanity
13:57 < sipa> if you use a proof system with a compatible group order, you wouldn't need to implement EC multiplication inside the circuit
13:58 < pinheadmz> ahhh oh kay interesting
13:59 < sipa> (you can't use snarks then of course, because no pairing-friendly group with the secp256k1 order is known)
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14:04 < andytoshi> gleb: if you are thinking of doing a stark of blockheaders that would be amazing!!
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14:04 < sipa> starks also don't have strong security assumptions afaik
14:05 < andytoshi> i think it's definitely feasible. i don't have a good intuition for concrete numbers. if you had to use a machine with 500gb of RAM for 2 weeks to produce the proof it wouldn't shock me (and we can get you such a machine :P)
14:05 < sipa> and for the application of proving header validity, their large proofs aren't really a problem
14:05 < sipa> andytoshi: i don't think it's interesting if it can't be basically done on the fly by normal nodes
14:05 < andytoshi> sipa: you mean, the security assumptions are "safe"
14:05 < andytoshi> i always get strong/weak backward :)
14:05 < andytoshi> sipa: well it might be ok if the first 650000 blocks take forever
14:06 < andytoshi> and then nodes are just adding a few (dozen) at a time afterward
14:06 < sipa> andytoshi: i mean, if you're only going to do it once, we can just use a checkpoint at that height instead :p
14:06 < andytoshi> sipa: you can extend existing starks, is my point. at the very least by doing a recursive stark
14:07 < andytoshi> but there are also papers about somehow inherently making them extensible
14:07 < andytoshi> if you have some pre-stark data to work with
14:07 < sipa> andytoshi: and doing a few dozen is not interesting either; headers are 80 bytes... if the proof is bigger than the headers we don't really gain anything
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14:07 < sipa> you probably need to be able to construct for 1000s of headers at once at least
14:08 < sipa> hmm, recursive starks may be useful
14:08 < sdaftuar> i'm a little late to this conversation but just tried to catch up on the logs.  it seemed to me that once we have p2p logic that solved this problem, we would never need to use it, because there would be no incentive to do this attack.
14:08 < andytoshi> oh, yeah, i hadn't considered that you could non-recursively stark up 50000 blocks at once (say) and that'd still be valuable
14:09 < sdaftuar> so i think that creates some sort of bound on how much effort to go to, to design a solution
14:09 < gleb> sdaftuar: I know this is a weird question, but do you think the p2p approach is easy enough?
14:09 < andytoshi> sdaftuar: i can imagine the starks being useful beyond an anti-DoS mechanism
14:10 < sipa> andytoshi: hmm if a stark is feasible for just proving one header's chainwork recursively in function of a proof of the previous block... that might be practical if one step of the proof is relatively cheap to construct
14:10 < sdaftuar> andytoshi: ah then that probably makes more sense than the kind of p2p logic i was envisioning, which was definitely not useful beyond the thing i tried to write it for :)
14:10 < sipa> because then you have an O(1) incrementally computable thing, that any node could keep updated, and provide to any other node that asks for it
14:11 < andytoshi> lol, well, i'm missng context about how this would integrate into the p2p layer :) i just came here to shill starks' computational feasibility
14:11 < sdaftuar> gleb: i managed to write code that i *believe* works, even without a p2p protocol extension (i opened, and hten closed a pull request with the logic, so people could look at it if they cared).
14:11 < sdaftuar> gleb: it would be easier with a p2p protocol extension that enabled reverse headers fetching
14:11 < sipa> "what is you best chain's tip work, and prove to me that a chain with that much work actually exists" - "here ya go"
14:11 < sdaftuar> that seems nice!
14:12 < gleb> andytoshi: what do you think are other applications of headers stark?
14:12 < gleb> I can only shamefully think of some wrapped bitcoin whatever...
14:12 < andytoshi> gleb: well, if i give you a stark that a header is the tip of the best-work chain, then when i give you the actual headers you only need to check that they form a chain
14:12 < sipa> sdaftuar: with a stark this would still be in the 10s of kilobytes (or 100s?) of proof data... but not 10s of MB
14:12 < andytoshi> you don't need to check nBits, check the PoW etc
14:13 < gleb> may be useful for light clients?
14:13 < andytoshi> yes
14:13 < andytoshi> and you can do better..
14:13 < sipa> a recursive snark (not really up to date how far those are along...) would do the same with a tiny amount of data
14:13 < sdaftuar> andytoshi: so the stark somehow encodes the bitcoin headers consensus rules, is the idea?  what about timestamp?
14:13 < gleb> And actually, when I receive a payment, it's really a payer should *prove* the transaction is in the heaviest (heavy enough) chain
14:13 < andytoshi> i can provide a stark that (a) a blockheader is the tip of a best-work chain, and (b) all its blocks are committed to in a merkle tree whose root i provide (which also commits to height and other stuff you might care about)
14:14 < andytoshi> and now you have a way to quickly check individual blocks without downloading the whole chain
14:14 < sipa> andytoshi: hmmm!
14:14 < sipa> do you need a stark for that?
14:14 < andytoshi> sdaftuar: yeah, i'm thinking specifically about the difficulty/PoW rules
14:14 < sdaftuar> there's also the pesky 2 hour rule
14:14 < sipa> you could envision an interactive protocol where you first commit to a merkle sum tree of blockheader chainwork, and i make a few random queries in that tree
14:15 < andytoshi> true sdaftuar ... like everything consensus-wise it'd spiral out and be hard to capture. but i think it's feasible to do. (unlike, say, trying to caputer all the Script rules)
14:15 < andytoshi> sipa: well, the hard part is that you want to verify that the challenge blockheaders are actually in the chain
14:16 < sipa> andytoshi: so you ask to reveal a few random pairs of subsequent headers, and see the later one refers to the previous one?
14:16 < andytoshi> and if you want to do that without needing O(height) many blockheaders, you need some stark-like thing
14:16 < andytoshi> sipa: hmmmmmm
14:16 < sipa> this feels related to flyclient
14:16 < andytoshi> that's pretty clever
14:16 < andytoshi> yeah i could believe this could work
14:17 < sipa> you can bias your queries in function of chainwork too
14:17 < sipa> if you interactive descend through the tree
14:17 < sipa> (or fiat-shamir it...)
14:17 < andytoshi> just revealing random pairs i think isn't enough, if you lie about a single connection you can create a pretty destructive false proof and you might not get caught
14:17 < andytoshi> biasing in terms of chainwork would help
14:22 < gleb> Thank you, I didn't expect us having so good discussion here.
14:23 < gleb> I'll probably take a closer look in a week or two, and will post here if I have any results.
14:23 < gleb> (look at the existing libraries and such)
14:23 < sipa> i also just saw this: https://twitter.com/zkproofs/status/1364689955121885192
14:23 < sipa> may be vaguely relevant
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14:48 < phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i guess walking backwards would let you apply some kind of sanity check by asking many peers for their tip but also what if the chain with the most work has a recent run of lower difficulty blocks
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19:52 < kanzure> "Proof-carrying data without succinct arguments" https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/1618.pdf
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 25 00:00:39 2021