--- Log opened Fri Apr 16 00:00:27 2021 00:40 -!- jadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-2-139.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:09 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10 -!- jadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:57 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:59 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:02 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06 -!- snyke is now known as cdecker 02:13 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@176.121.4.135] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 02:25 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@176.121.4.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:29 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:40 -!- Kiminuo [~Kiminuo@89.238.186.252] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:41 -!- Kiminuo [~Kiminuo@89.238.186.252] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43 -!- Kimi [~Kiminuo@141.98.103.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:46 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@185.142.226.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:02 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:03 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 03:41 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:52 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 04:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:16 -!- livestradamus [~quassel@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 04:17 -!- livestradamus [~quassel@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:30 -!- jadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02 -!- alt0id [~nutz0@194.28.131.49] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:23 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 05:27 -!- jadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:36 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:59 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:04 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:30 -!- serAphim1 [~serAphim@217.146.82.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 < kanzure> .title http://iwpe.info/ 07:04 < kanzure> saxo? 07:04 < EmmyNoether> 2021 International Workshop on Privacy Engineering - IWPE'21 / International Workshop on Privacy Engineering 07:21 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:52 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:02 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@185.142.226.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:02 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:16 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@97-118-239-55.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:17 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wozivfdmchvrtxja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-82-248-114.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:09 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@97-118-239-55.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:12 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50 -!- jadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:57 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:13 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:33 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- smartineng [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has quit [Quit: smartineng] 12:43 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:44 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:09 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:31 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-2-139.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 15:24 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44ts7vng94icd4oc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34 -!- EndFiat [EndFiat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/endfiat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50 -!- EndFiat [EndFiat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/endfiat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55 -!- alt0id [~nutz0@194.28.131.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:16 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44ts7vng94icd4oc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18 < yanmaani> Does Bitcoin support negative transaction fees? 16:18 < yanmaani> Or do all payout have to be done in the coinbase? 16:18 < yanmaani> payouts* 16:25 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-82-248-114.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51 < roconnor> according to my notes a valid transaction requires that the sum of the values of the outputs are greater than or equal to the sum of the values of the inputs. 16:52 < sipa> i believe your notes may be incorrect 16:52 < roconnor> (non-coinbase transaction) 16:52 < roconnor> *lol* 16:52 < roconnor> less than or equal to. 16:53 < roconnor> I seem to have a reading comprehension problem. 16:53 < sipa> in that case, that sounds accurate 16:59 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:02 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 17:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24 < yanmaani> :( how ugly 17:25 < yanmaani> couldn't he just have required that the sum of all inputs plus the subsidy is greater than or equal to all outputs 17:27 < yanmaani> Have there been any proposals to regulate UTXO set growth by decreasing block weight limit? 17:28 -!- troygiorshev [~troygiors@d67-193-140-136.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 -!- troygiorshev [~troygiors@d67-193-140-136.home3.cgocable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:39 < belcher> yanmaani yes luke proposed smaller blocks, i proposed increasing the average time between blocks, reducing UTXO set growth wasnt really an explicit aim but both would have that effect 18:06 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Hmmm] 18:07 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@unaffiliated/willcl-ark/x-8282106] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 18:12 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@unaffiliated/willcl-ark/x-8282106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:14 < jeremyrubin> yanmaani: even better, utreexo puts the onus of storage for a utxo on the owner at the expense of blocks getting a bit bigger metadata 18:18 -!- kenshi84_ [~kenshi84@49.135.43.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:19 < jeremyrubin> yanmaani: you also might look into using CTV w/ a cooperative close branch (payment pools) for all outputs 18:19 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@49.135.46.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46 < yanmaani> belcher: No, I mean decrasing block size if you create an utxo 18:46 < yanmaani> if a block causes utxo set to grow by 200 outputs, the block size goes down by say 200 bytes 18:47 < yanmaani> jeremyrubin: No, I have a proposal, I'm just curious if the idea has been discussed and rejected already 19:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:28 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:42 -!- uiuc-slack2 [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02 < jeremyrubin> yanmaani: it's been discussed, pretty unpopular 20:10 < yanmaani> jeremyrubin: any links? 20:15 < jeremyrubin> https://btctranscripts.com/magicalcryptoconference/2019/why-block-sizes-should-not-be-too-big/ 20:17 < jeremyrubin> https://btctranscripts.com/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong-2015/why-miners-will-not-voluntarily-individually-produce-smaller-blocks/ 20:18 < jeremyrubin> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/is-it-time-to-take-an-initiative-to-decrease-bitcoins-block-size-seriously 20:19 < kanzure> and utreexo https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2019/utreexo/ 20:19 < jeremyrubin> [4/16/21 18:14] yanmaani: even better, utreexo puts the onus of storage for a utxo on the owner at the expense of blocks getting a bit bigger metadata 20:19 < jeremyrubin> :) 20:20 < jeremyrubin> yanmaani: this stuff is all relatively googleable BTW 20:20 < kanzure> ah then my work here is done... back to the shadows. 20:39 < yanmaani> jeremyrubin: That's for across-the-board cuts, though 20:41 < yanmaani> I guess I should just post my proposal to the mailing list and you can roast it. But the idea is to make "new UTXO" have a cost in terms of block size limit. 20:41 < yanmaani> So you can either have a 1MB block with ±0 UTXOs, or a smaller block that bloats the UTXO set, but not both 20:57 < rubikputer> yanmaani: wouldn't this make tx selection for miners significantly more difficult to do? 21:00 < sipa> yanmaani: arguably, we actually have something vaguely like that already through segwit's witness discount (most of the data in txins is witness data, but outputs are purely non-discounted), so relatively speaking, outputs consume more block space already 21:00 < sipa> and this was intentional 21:01 < sipa> specifically to partially rectify the situation that creating outputs is generally cheaper than spending them 21:08 -!- jadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:15 < yanmaani> rubikputer: no. If a transaction is "artificially" added 4 vB, just increase the size by it 21:15 < yanmaani> e.g. 200 vB transaction, plus 50 vB penalty for creating a new UTXO is 250 vB 21:15 < yanmaani> and calculate fee based on that 21:16 < yanmaani> a 200 vB transaction that consolidates 6 UTXOs to 1 is -5 UTXOs, if it's 50 vB/UTXO then size is 200-250 = -50 vB 21:16 < yanmaani> (iow, the miners should be willing to pay to get to include that transaction) 21:17 < sipa> well you can't actually have transactions with negative weight, at least not without separate alternative limits 21:17 < sipa> or you could construct an infinitely sized block 21:20 < sipa> what you really want is per-block limits on bandwidth/cpu/processing resources, and separately an incentive to keep the utxo set manageable... but that incentive isn't exactly something that needs a per-block limit 21:24 -!- sipa [~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30 -!- sipa [~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:30 -!- sipa [~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35 -!- sipa [~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:43 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:51 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00 -!- wjp [~wjp@217.146.82.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:56 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@37.98.3.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:19 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:22 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-193-19.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:55 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] --- Log closed Sat Apr 17 00:00:28 2021