--- Log opened Tue Apr 20 00:00:31 2021
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04:01 < someone235> Hi, someone knows what is the network delay with FIBRE?
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04:21 < instagibbs> someone235, FIBRE is no longer active
04:21 < instagibbs> for at least half a year
04:21 < someone235> instagibbs: Oh really? Why?
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04:23 < instagibbs> Not going to speak for BlueMatt but I'm guessing a mixture of not wanting to maintain it anymore, and also testing to see if the network even needed it (afaik no one noticed until a month ago)
04:26 < aj> https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1343965240682274817 was a bit more than a month ago
04:27 < instagibbs> 2020-2021 has been a heck of a month
04:29 < aj> FIBRE is a bunch of patches to bitcoin core, except the license is different (Affero GPL) so they can't actually be merged upstream, and matt got bored porting them forward, i think?
04:31 < instagibbs> blockstream may be maintaining a similar set of patches, aimed at satellite broadcast
04:51 < someone235> Interesting
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04:55 < aj> instagibbs: not in elementsproject, by the looks? (maintaining AGPL stuff internally seems mildly scary)
05:03 < instagibbs> adam3us, ?
05:04 < instagibbs> https://github.com/Blockstream/bitcoinsatellite ah here we go
05:11 < aj> 190 commits behind bitcoinfibre:master? yikes :-/
05:12 < aj> oh maybe i should focus on the 5800 commits ahead
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07:53 < BlueMatt> aj: nah, the patches that mattered really needed to go upstream (specifically parallel compact block fetching, which was critical for fibre). I tried, for years, but they never went anywhere
07:53 < BlueMatt> aj: the actual fibre bits were trivial to maintain/rebase, but sadly other perf stuff needed to go upstream and never did
07:54 < queip> proof-of-space, is there any at all merit in this, or it always requires huge amount of blockchain space to verify? (build binary trees of file sectors, use 2 sectors data + their checksum signed by Alice to challange on-chain Alice to provide their content or be punished for not storing this data as promised)?
07:55 < queip> Bob keeps on his disk F/S * 32B + 32B (F=file size, S=sector size eg 1024, hash, signature) instead of entire file F, and needs to clutter blockspace by around 2*32+2*S to enforce file storage contract when promise broken?
08:11 < roconnor> queip: At least several years ago chia had the problem that PoS doesn't incur any opportunity cost, thus the rational thing for "miners" to do is to simply build upon every tip; which lead to chia
08:11 < roconnor> chia's software tracking at least 5 tips.
08:11 < roconnor> I don't know if that has changed in any way.
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08:53 < queip> roconnor: this is about proof-of-SPACE (storage) right? not of stake?
08:54 < roconnor> yes. Chia is a proof-of-space blockchain.
08:54 < roconnor> (though I suppose the same concern applies to some proof-of-stake proposals.)
08:56 < jeremyrubin> I think you misunderstand queip
08:56 < jeremyrubin> Chia AFAIK has nothing to do with *file* storage
08:56 < roconnor> oh, are there two meaning to proof-of-space.
08:56 < jeremyrubin> As in I don't upload my favorite video to the network
08:57 < jeremyrubin> it has to do with "proof i filled my disk with garbage
08:57 < roconnor> oh man.  queips comment makes way more sense now.
08:57 < jeremyrubin> I think that's what the question was?
08:57 < jeremyrubin> And I think bram has some clever algos (although it's too clever for me... oh the beauty of sha256 pow) which are both space and time hard
08:58 < queip> well dunno I guess both filling with user data, and with some trustlessly-fair-random data have similar problem? both use a lot of blockchain space? or?
08:58 < jeremyrubin> Nope! Your "plots" are a bunch of pre-computed results essentially
08:58 < queip> all I know so far about proof of storage/file/whatever is that I think it will be too bloated in blockchain size and network transfers to be really usable
08:58 < jeremyrubin> and it's O(1) storage and time for the network to issue a query against it I think
08:59 < roconnor> okay. I know nothing about proof-of-storage.
08:59 < jeremyrubin> but it requires the prover to store O(N) data (or worse)
08:59 < jeremyrubin> so it's one-sided
08:59 < jeremyrubin> basically imagine if bitcoin private keys had to be 1 terrabyte big
08:59 < jeremyrubin> but public keys could still be 32 bytes
09:00 < jeremyrubin> you'd probably, e.g., make use of public HD derivation a lot ;)
09:00 < jeremyrubin> but it wouldn't bloat the chain space
09:00 < jeremyrubin> AFAIU that's what Chia is doing
09:00 < queip> so... does any version of it make sense, in world where we want full nodes and network/cpu are limited? or not?  let's assume for a moment that wallets can be giganting and users live with it
09:01 < jeremyrubin> Contrast to Sia/Filecoin where you need to retreive and return the file
09:01 < jeremyrubin> Where they're similar in mechanism is that Sia/Filecoin I think use similar mechanism for the contract
09:01 < jeremyrubin> BUT where they differ is... you gotta actually get the files to users sometime
09:02 < jeremyrubin> AFAIU these systems are entirely/mostly insecure w.r.t. retreival
09:02 < jeremyrubin> v.s. proof that if you asked reeeeaallly nicely someone would give you the file
09:02 < jeremyrubin> i don't know if taek42 hangs out here anymore but you could ask him
09:38 < rubikputer> jeremyrubin: as I understand it Sia's storage doesn't have anything to do with consensus, it's just a lightning-like contract that users have with hosts and then an challenge at contract expiry
09:39 < rubikputer> IIRC Filecoin miners *do* have to store the data to make their consensus work, but the economics are out of wack so it often makes economical sense for them to just to nuke the files instead of keeping them live
09:40 < rubikputer> I wonder if Sia ever looked into something like proof-of-space considering that hosts would often have unused storage they could commit to that
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17:42 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio/pull/117
17:43 < jeremyrubin> Decentralized Coordination Free Mining Pools :)
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