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10:27 < yanmaani> jeremyrubin: so would this be a replacement for P2pool?
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10:28 < jeremyrubin> alternative
10:28 < jeremyrubin> it's different
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13:39 < CryptOprah> H
13:40 < CryptOprah> Is this dead?
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13:43 < sipa> yes
13:44 < jeremyrubin> sipa: i think you mean no?
13:44 < jeremyrubin> but also they left the server
13:46 < sipa> jeremyrubin: i'm awarr
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14:44 < darosior> Since SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT does not commit to the witness script, it still allows to have a covenant by stuffing a signature in the previous output's script right? I remember Bob McElrath told me that ANYPREVOUT made this impossible contrary to NOINPUT, but it seems that ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT still has this property?
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14:58 < jeremyrubin> AFAIU this is correct
14:59 < jeremyrubin> There still exists 2 differences I could tell from what CTV enables, and that is the ability to commit to all sequences and the ability to commit to all scriptsigs
15:00 < jeremyrubin> If you were to do ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT | SINGLE |  ALL (unclear if this is a valid combo???) it would permit single input CTV equivalent covenants
15:00 < jeremyrubin> err not SINGLE, just ALL
15:00 < darosior> SINGLE | ALL can't work i think
15:00 < darosior> right
15:01 < jeremyrubin> Then I *think* you'd get a nonmalleable TXID
15:02 < darosior> Interesting, why CTV over sighash-based covenants then? Seems way more flexible. (sorry if you rehashed already, a link to a previous convo is welcome too :p)
15:03 < darosior> Hmm for multi-inputs CTVs ? Otherwise it's malleable if you have >1 transaction down the chain
15:04 < jeremyrubin> BTW i'm not sure ANYPREVOUT has a reference client
15:04 < jeremyrubin> and i can't figure out if it's compatible with SIGHASH_ALL from aj's BIP draft?
15:05 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/ajtowns/bips/blob/bip-anyprevout/bip-0118.mediawiki
15:05 < jeremyrubin> Part of the "why X over Z" is answered in a few places
15:06 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/ajtowns/bips/blob/bip-anyprevout/bip-0118.mediawiki
15:06 < jeremyrubin> oops
15:06 < darosior> What do you mean compatible with SIGHASH_ALL ?
15:06 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki#feature-redundancy
15:07 < jeremyrubin> I should probably tweak the BIP Text to say *size and speed*
15:07 < jeremyrubin> Also covered here https://utxos.org/alternatives/
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15:08 < jeremyrubin> Well it's just not defined in BIP118 if SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT | SIGHASH_ALL is a valid signature mode
15:10 < darosior> I don't think it would make sense ? It is for single to discard the other inputs, but ALL is completely contrary to APV ? What could it enable?
15:11 < jeremyrubin> I'm not sure
15:11 < jeremyrubin> I'm just reading BIP-118
15:12 < jeremyrubin> you might be smarter than me, but my brain turns into pasta trying to read https://github.com/ajtowns/bips/blob/bip-anyprevout/bip-0118.mediawiki#signature-message
15:12 < jeremyrubin> It's unclear to me that SIGHASH_ALL | SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT is a valid combo
15:13 < darosior> Haha, no, same. But conceptually i don't think their feature can "intersect", i may be wrong
15:14 < jeremyrubin> What do you mean "intersect"
15:14 < jeremyrubin> like you can't have both?
15:14 < jeremyrubin> So the sighash flags IMO are confusing -- I think it helps to not think of them as flags, but as versions.
15:14 < jeremyrubin> We have 256 versions, each can have a different exact spec
15:15 < jeremyrubin> (in fact we should probably rearchitect the code to not use flags since it's confusing that there can be invalid combos)
15:17 < jeremyrubin> Oh also, it's not clear this sighash mode will be available outside of taproot
15:17 < jeremyrubin> and there are some use cases for bare script CTV
15:17 < jeremyrubin> a last reason I'll give you -- which is highly highly debatable -- is that CTV exists in "RTM" state , pending review of code
15:17 < darosior> Yes, i mean all their features are opposite. ALL is including all available information, APV is removing some. What could be a mix of both? With SINGLE it's different as features can "intersect", ie you can have both "void the other inputs" and "void the witness script and prevout for this input i'm signing"
15:18 < jeremyrubin> I don't think there's a concrete code object for Anyprevout yet?
15:18 < jeremyrubin> darosior: sure, I'll agree that as flags it wouldn't make sense
15:19 < jeremyrubin> but as "versions", it would be definable as each 1 of 256 has some meaning
15:19 < darosior> Re sighash mode outside of Taproot, no. I think the authors wanted to have a very minimal change and it's actually defined for Tapscript OPs
15:19 < darosior> Yes, with versions we should get rid of the names too then :)
15:19 < jeremyrubin> well I think each version could just have a name
15:20 < jeremyrubin> "35" is not a good name, but "ALLOUTPUTSMYINPUT" is ~ok
15:20 < jeremyrubin> darosior: speaking of pending review, I would highly appreciate one on the CTV pr :)
15:20 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21702
15:22 < darosior> hehe, i'm still trying to get my head around what's best conceptually first. Sorry if you went through this for the past years already, but i'm not yet in a "i'm sure it's the right way let's review the implementation" state yet
15:22 < jeremyrubin> if there's no SIGHASH_ALL | ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT mode then you can't guarantee TXID non malleability with ANYPREVOUT
15:23 < jeremyrubin> altho I would consider that you might not need txid nonmaleability if you have anyprevout, it does rule out certain classes of covenant design that use traditional presigned txs
15:23 < darosior> How would ALL | APVAS (much acronyms) would differ from APVAS only ?
15:24 < darosior> You have excellent documentation, btw
15:24 < jeremyrubin> y thank u
15:24 < jeremyrubin> ok so trying to come up with more differences...
15:24 < jeremyrubin> amount (8): value of the previous output spent by this input.
15:25 < jeremyrubin> by comitting to the amount spent, CTV covenants have to know the *exact* amount spent into the address, or it will fail.
15:25 < jeremyrubin> I omitted this from CTV intentionally, figuring exact amount commitments are useful, but should be a separate opcode/check
15:26 < jeremyrubin> This is because if we expect our covenant to require 1BTC and we receive 1.00001 btc, we don't want to get bricked
15:26 < jeremyrubin> However, Anyprevout also hashes the annex
15:27 < jeremyrubin> This might be useful, however it means that the annexes must be known in advance for Anyprevout covenants
15:27 < darosior> Oh, i just remembered why it's not possible
15:27 < jeremyrubin> This prevents the annex being used for anything useful that is not known ahead of time
15:27 < darosior> BIP340 makes the pubkey part of the signature digest iirc
15:27 < darosior> To mitigate the concerns re HD wallets
15:28 < jeremyrubin> I think this was worked around by andytoshi
15:28 < jeremyrubin> https://medium.com/blockstream/cat-and-schnorr-tricks-ii-2f6ede3d7bb5
15:29 < jeremyrubin> err https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/blog/cat-and-schnorr-tricks-i.html
15:29 < jeremyrubin> It would appear that BIP340 puts the nail in the coffin of this style of covenant: P shows up explicitly in the signature hash, so no matter what crazy future sighashing schemes might get included in Bitcoin, this circularity will remain and we are stuck. In fact, this inclusion of P means that BIP340 signatures aren't just signatures, but "signatures of knowledge". This is a term of art which means, roughly, that you are not
15:29 < jeremyrubin> able to run these signatures backward in any sense. For a long time, I thought this meant that I couldn't abuse BIP340 signatures to get non-signature behavior out of them.
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15:30 < jeremyrubin> it's more complex but not a show stopper I think as you just need to make compilation like 256 times slower for contracts
15:30 < darosior> Nice. You need CAT though
15:30 < jeremyrubin> right
15:31 < jeremyrubin> I'm not sure actually...
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15:33 < jeremyrubin> why can't the script just be <G> CHECKSIG <s> CHECKEQUAL?
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15:35 < darosior> I think andytoshi here is trying to reproduce what's hashed in BIP340 (R || P || m) on the stack
15:35 < jeremyrubin> no that's not quite it
15:35 < darosior> So he needs to concatenate them to use OP_SHA256?
15:35 < jeremyrubin> Anyways... maybe andytoshi can comment on if OP_CAT is actually needed
15:36 < jeremyrubin> But the reason why SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT doesn't commit to the same info as CTV single script is that you need to commit to 1) sequences 2) not having more than 1 input
15:37 < jeremyrubin> and I don't see anything that prevents you from adding inputs after the fact
15:38 < jeremyrubin> and not being able to commit to the sequence (remember, CSV is only lower bounding not exact value) means that TXIDs can't be made immaleable
15:39 < jeremyrubin> Therefore *any* signatures you're doing for presigned in a covenant must be using anyprevoutanyscript
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15:39 < jeremyrubin> which is a pretty annoying design constraint
15:40 < jeremyrubin> it means keys used in covenants really can't be reused
15:40 < darosior> Oh, good point (unrelatedly to the current discussion) for the lower bounding + nSequence committing. I think i overlooked that in my "Revault with APV + CTV design"
15:42 < jeremyrubin> I obviously think that Revault can tweak it's design *slightly* and run on Sapio today :)
15:42 < darosior> Hmm but BIP118 still commits to the nSequence for both
15:42 < jeremyrubin> nope I don't think so?
15:42 < darosior> The sighash flag has been renamed from "NOINPUT" to "ANYPREVOUT" to reflect that while any prevout may potentially be used with the signature, some aspects of the input are still committed to, namely the input nSequence value, and (optionally) the spending conditions and amount.
15:42 < andytoshi> 22:33 < jeremyrubin> why can't the script just be <G> CHECKSIG <s> CHECKEQUAL?
15:42 < darosior> ^ this was a quote
15:42 < andytoshi> how can <G> possibly be a valid sig?
15:43 < jeremyrubin> err isn't <G> the pubkey there?
15:44 < andytoshi> oh right, yeah
15:44 < jeremyrubin> `s <G>s <G> CHECKSIG`
15:44 < jeremyrubin> so if I had
15:44 < darosior> jeremyrubin: what do you mean by *slightly* ? :) if Sapio is emulating CTV, then no any modification to Revault to include CTV would largely change the behaviour
15:44 < jeremyrubin> How so?
15:45 < jeremyrubin> so if spk = `<G> CHECKSIGVERIFY <s> CHECKEQUAL`
15:45 < jeremyrubin> can't I then pass in <s> <G|s> to satisfy?
15:46 < jeremyrubin> darosior: let's move the revault sapio convo
15:46 < andytoshi> you can't put <s> in the scriptpubkey, you don't know what <s> is
15:46 < jeremyrubin> to #sapio
15:46 < andytoshi> when you are constructing the spk
15:47 < jeremyrubin> he s that our script leaves on the stack is actually a SHA256 hash of our transaction data, prefixed by a couple copies of G (and a couple copies of SHA256("BIP0340") because BIP340 loves itself).
15:47 < jeremyrubin> ^ quote you
15:47 < andytoshi> yes....and "our transaction data" includes the spk
15:47 < jeremyrubin> so if it's just the hash of the txdata, and we have APAS, why not?
15:48 < jeremyrubin> APAS = ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT
15:48 < andytoshi> oh i missed that
15:48 < andytoshi> yeah i could believe that it works, thuogh i'm then really doubtful about its securit
15:48 < andytoshi> but i haven't worked through that
15:51 < jeremyrubin> nSequence is *only* hashed for ANYPREVOUT
15:51 < jeremyrubin> not ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT
15:51 < jeremyrubin> Err wait
15:51 < jeremyrubin> Not it is hashed for ANYPREVOUTANYSCRIPT
15:52  * jeremyrubin *shakes fist at AJ* make your bip more readable, man!
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16:07 < jeremyrubin> andytoshi: I mean I think it should be secure... if you pass in anything except <s> <G|s> then it should fail to validate... but TBH that this is possible at all makes me doubtful that there aren't other things that wouldn't occur to me
16:08 < jeremyrubin> i think it still doesn't make a good argument against CTV, given that <s> <G|s> <G> CHECKSIG <s> CHECKEQUAL is what like 5x the data
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 22 00:00:33 2021