--- Log opened Thu Apr 29 00:00:40 2021
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08:18 < jeremyrubin> rubikputer: mostly, no
08:18 < jeremyrubin> Addresses are recipient created destinations
08:19 < jeremyrubin> E.g., imagine I want to make an address that is {8 of 10 if amount > 1BTC, 2 of 3 if amount < 1BTC}
08:19 < rubikputer> oh wait I misunderstood how it would be used, that makes sense
08:19 < jeremyrubin> err one should be <=
08:19 < jeremyrubin> yeah pretty useful, right?
08:21 < rubikputer> that could be useful with lightning close addresses, like if you have a big channel that gets closed you want to send it to a hw wallet
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08:24 < jeremyrubin> hmm for LN you have presigneds
08:25 < rubikputer> oh that's true
08:25 < rubikputer> you would be able to update the output address on every update anyways
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12:32 < ariard> jeremyrubin: have you explored template extensions committing to sha_amounts ?
12:32 < jeremyrubin> https://gist.github.com/JeremyRubin/d9f146475f53673cd03c26ab46492504
12:32 < jeremyrubin> IDK if you saw that or not
12:33 < jeremyrubin> Comitting to sha_amounts would be cool I guess?
12:33 < ariard> yes i'm proposing a different approach to solve the same problem of branching on input value?
12:33 < jeremyrubin> the only issue is w/o OP_CAT you can't do multi-input txns that easily?
12:33 < ariard> because there you assume extending the witness data
12:34 < jeremyrubin> yeah I guess the question is how useful is the "exact value" v.s. "ranged value" form
12:34 < ariard> well you assume per-template extension branch
12:34 < ariard> that's also a good question
12:35 < jeremyrubin> The reason why I disincluded amount from the template in the first place is kinda interesting
12:35 < jeremyrubin> which is that A) I figured the functionality should be independent (has uses for TR)
12:36 < jeremyrubin> B) you might want to always include a little bit more to add fees
12:36 < jeremyrubin> (that only works from a parent to a child node)
12:36 < jeremyrubin> But you could make the compiler wait to compile till you pick fees too, of course
12:36 < ariard> right fees is matching my intuition why you wouldn't include but in practice you will have an anchor ouput on each trancation node
12:36 < jeremyrubin> hopefully sponsors w/ 100 block timeout + package relay
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12:39 < jeremyrubin> ariard: another reason is that CTV is the minimal info to prevent malleability / be secure
12:39 < ariard> well for the use case you're describing you will need multiple templates committed in the witnessScript as outputs scriptpubkeys are always part of the template
12:40 < jeremyrubin> Which case?
12:40 < jeremyrubin> I don't think that implies that anchors are always free
12:40 < ariard> they're def not free
12:40 < ariard> the 8 of 10 if amount > 1BTC, 2 of 3...
12:41 < jeremyrubin> I do anticipate the most common use case would be "if amount != expected: multisig else: program"
12:42 < jeremyrubin> and you probably only need it at top level nodes or nodes with >1 input
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12:49 < jeremyrubin> ariard: BTW the way CTV works is 32 bytes is the only interpreted arg size for now. Could easily propose a version byte flag that adds the relevant data (and leave the other 7 open)
12:49 < jeremyrubin> I think it would be reasonable to have feature redundancy with some sort of value checking operation
12:49 < jeremyrubin> If you actually want to solve for it tho I think it's really annoying
12:49 < jeremyrubin> since script is limited to 4 byte nums
12:50 < jeremyrubin> which is why i didn't propose some push value form
12:51 < jeremyrubin> I think you could also do some sort of "mini" scripting language inside of a stack elt which just can check value logic constraints
12:51 < jeremyrubin> But I think that would be a bit lolsy to add a script inside script
12:52 < jeremyrubin> but it might be less lolsy than having to use two sep integers if the amount is more than 21 btc
12:53 < jeremyrubin> (altho miniscript should be able to make the user not care)
12:55 < ariard> jeremyrubin: so it would be <hash n> ... <hash 0> <version_hash> OP_CTV? where version hash tell you the length of the byte vector and which semantic to enforce on them?
12:55 < ariard> right so you can't enforce on the stack CAmount
12:55 < jeremyrubin> no I was thinking more like
12:56 < jeremyrubin> <version ||  PROGRAM> OP_CTV
12:56 < jeremyrubin> but I think your form might be more general
12:56 < jeremyrubin> but then you need to follow it by DROP*n
12:56 < ariard> hmmm can't you drop them with OP_SUCCESS semantic?
12:57 < jeremyrubin> Well not really
12:57 < jeremyrubin> since CTV is defined in base script
12:57 < ariard> right you're purposing op_nop4
12:59 < jeremyrubin> yeah
13:00 < ariard> jeremyrubin: so you're version byte flag would be a push on the stack transaction data and then your PROGRAM do whatever checks it wants?
13:00 < jeremyrubin> if we wanted to go all OP_SUCCESSX you could make CTV a pushdata thingy like johnson lau's approach
13:00 < jeremyrubin> well no generally OP_CTV should be a verify only op
13:00 < ariard> not a big fan of this approach, hash malleability might let you check multiple transactions field with same hash
13:01 < jeremyrubin> https://utxos.org/alternatives/
13:01 < ariard> quite remember OP_PUSHTXDATA
13:02 < jeremyrubin> I'm pretty OK with OP_CTV *not* getting extended and someone coming up with something else later
13:02 < jeremyrubin> CTV wins in the sense it's just really simple
13:02 < jeremyrubin> and the scripts are minimal
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13:07 < jeremyrubin> BTW it might not be obvious, but you can do: <program> sha256 ctv too
13:07 < jeremyrubin> so if you have op_cat you can pick random bits if you want
13:07 < ariard> if the template_hash is longuer than 32-byte, you proceed as a NOP right?
13:07 < jeremyrubin> yep
13:08 < ariard> so easy to add a longer template_hash in the future and fail the execution with new semantics?
13:08 < jeremyrubin> yeah
13:08 < ariard> good, i think it should be more clear in the bip, that's an implicit versioning mechanism :)
13:10 < ariard> like in the future the 33th byte could be an extension/malleability flag
13:11 < jeremyrubin> If the argument length is not exactly 32, CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY treats it as a NOP. Many OP_NOP upgrades prefer to fail in such circumstances. In particular, for CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY, making an invalid argument a NOP permits future soft-forks to upgrade the semantics or loosed restrictions around the value being previously pushed only. ?
13:11 < ariard> yes op_cat + sha256 you have same flexibility than OP_CSFS?
13:11 < jeremyrubin> maybe a bit different
13:11 < jeremyrubin> some things more some less
13:12 < ariard> fair, the bip is quite wide
13:13 < jeremyrubin> i didn't want to over specify how upgrades had to look for non 32 byte things
13:13 < jeremyrubin> just the minimal rules
13:13 < ariard> i just fear that such script will require a huge witness data making it too expensive for a lot of users
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13:18 < jeremyrubin> if your version is determistic program over the txdata, you can also just commit to the hash
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