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(www.adiirc.com)] 13:55 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44trjj2mtsoilznn.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:13 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18 -!- kcalvinalvin [~kcalvinal@ec2-52-79-199-97.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:22 -!- kcalvinalvin [~kcalvinal@ec2-52-79-199-97.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:22 -!- Guest74952 [~Hunger@zer0days.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:23 -!- Hunger- [~Hunger@zer0days.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:42 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:50 < yanmaani> what's the current state of the art on 2-way pegged sidechains? 15:12 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:29 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:43 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44trjj2mtsoilznn.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10 -!- jadi [~jadi@188.212.244.144] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:15 -!- jadi [~jadi@188.212.244.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:39 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-3-44.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tutitvcshrwjdgxm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:02 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:05 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:06 < andytoshi> i think, SPV security is pretty-much a no-go. so somehow bitcoin would need to understand the sidechain rules, which would require some sort of succinct verification primitive (e.g. SNARKs or STARKs or something) 17:06 < andytoshi> but then on top of that there are incentive issues 17:06 < andytoshi> where a sufficiently large bitcoin reorg could cause all the coins on the sidechain to be stolen 17:06 < andytoshi> and it's really unclear to me how/if that can be solved 17:07 < andytoshi> even with moon math 17:08 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 17:31 < rubikputer> andytoshi: how impractical would it be to verify a snark proof in a tx? assuming pairing primitives were soft forked in 17:32 < rubikputer> I've been trying to see how much work people have put into it 17:32 < rubikputer> work/thought 17:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 17:39 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47 < andytoshi> if you were willing to trust a trusted setup 17:47 < andytoshi> pretty damn practical 17:48 -!- tomkap1 [~tomkap@217.146.82.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48 < sipa> if the verification key is part of the output, it can be a personal setup, no? 17:50 < rubikputer> I was under the impression it would be impractical to post the verification key to chain repeatedly if you're trying to do something like a prove state transitions of a sidechain 17:51 < jeremyrubin> you can enforce 1 state transition per block, and then batch within each tx? 17:53 < rubikputer> I guess it would make economic sense if you had enough activity on the sidechain to offset the costs, but bootstrapping a new sidechain would be tricky since it would be too expensive or you'd need to increase the time between blocks a lot before it would make sense 17:54 < sipa> given that verification of a snark is O(1) work, the key can't be big 17:54 < sipa> as verification at least needs to inspect the entire key 17:54 < sipa> the prover keys can be huge, though 17:55 < sipa> i'm not sure what the use cases of a snark with personal setup would be 17:55 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:56 < jeremyrubin> sipa: conceivably if you have the taproot assumption (some N of N signers) it's somewhat useful? 17:56 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56 < jeremyrubin> The snark key means that any 1 of N can effectively generate a valid "delegated" spend 17:56 < jeremyrubin> so improves availability 17:57 < jeremyrubin> further, it is "corruptible" but not "cheatable" -- e.g., if a party was at one point honest, they can't undelete their setup key 17:59 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01 < rubikputer> doesn't vk size increase with the circuit size? 18:01 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:01 < sipa> if it does, it's not succint 18:02 < sipa> or at least, if it does substantially 18:02 < sipa> it can grow logarithmically or so and be a snark 18:02 < jeremyrubin> verification *time* can be circuit size tho iirc in some 18:02 < jeremyrubin> not sure if that still meets snark def 18:03 < sipa> no 18:04 < sipa> sublinearly doesn't imply small, though :) 18:04 < sipa> but typical snarks iirc have O(1) verification time; just a few pairing operations 18:06 < sipa> bulletproofs are O(log n) in proof size, but O(n) in verification time, so they're no snark 18:06 < sipa> eg 18:07 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/matter-labs/awesome-zero-knowledge-proofs#comparison-of-the-most-popular-zkp-systems is kinda helpful 18:07 < jeremyrubin> not sure it's completely accurate tho 18:08 < jeremyrubin> too many acronyms 18:09 < jeremyrubin> hmm; it's claimed in some places that STARKS are a subset of SNARKS 18:09 < jeremyrubin> but they have polylog v time / space 18:09 < jeremyrubin> (this is the source of my confusion on if snark def permits > O(1) ver) 18:10 < sipa> over O(1) yes, but it has to be sublinear 18:10 < rubikputer> ^ this is my understanding as well 18:13 < jeremyrubin> Hmm 18:14 < jeremyrubin> not sure 18:14 < jeremyrubin> reading over exact defns in the snark paper 18:15 < jeremyrubin> succinct is defined as O(|F| + |x| + |z|) 18:15 < jeremyrubin> Where F is a function, x is the input, Z the output 18:16 < jeremyrubin> so it's not clear to me what exactly |F| is 18:16 < jeremyrubin> Madars: ? 18:16 < jeremyrubin> In https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/879.pdf what is |F| 18:17 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@49.135.36.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17 < jeremyrubin> the next sentence says " (i.e., verification time doesnotdepend on|w|, norF’s running time)" 18:18 < jeremyrubin> so |F| is what? 18:20 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@49.135.36.85] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 < rubikputer> isn't it the verifier of w? 18:21 < rubikputer> oh then |F| might be a description of F? 18:21 < jeremyrubin> F is an arbitrary function on public and private information 18:21 < sipa> i guess so 18:21 < jeremyrubin> description of F is circuit size? 18:28 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:28 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8e:fd73:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:47 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:56 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: Hmmm] 19:01 -!- Steini-1 [~Steini-@139.28.218.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:13 -!- jadi [~jadi@188.212.244.144] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:15 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9] 19:18 -!- jadi [~jadi@188.212.244.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [Chris_Stew@gateway/vpn/mullvad/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:06 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@97-118-239-55.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:16 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@176.121.4.135] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20:17 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@176.121.4.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:31 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:00 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:47 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:52 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00 -!- jadi [~jadi@188.212.244.144] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:04 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:04 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:08 -!- likewhoa- [~likewhoa@li1078-231.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:13 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: wxss, rockhouse, andytoshi, likewhoa, DougieBot5000, Emcy_, jcv, BlueMatt, x-warrior, jnewbery, (+7 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 22:13 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2a02:587:623d:6800:ac9b:cca1:4258:dfa9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:16 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2a02:587:623d:6800:34:b611:cc07:2d5a] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:21 -!- jadi [~jadi@188.212.244.144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:23 -!- rachelfish [~rachel@192.199.243.147] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:24 -!- Netsplit over, joins: jnewbery, andytoshi, wxss, nkuttler, x-warrior, BlueMatt, Guest21684, rockhouse, DougieBot5000, Iriez (+2 more) 22:27 -!- wizkid057 is now known as wk057 22:47 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@024-176-247-182.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:01 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:05 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2a02:587:623d:6800:ac9b:cca1:4258:dfa9] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:28 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:32 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.21.77.255] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:38 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:40 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Sat May 01 00:00:42 2021