--- Log opened Mon Jun 14 00:00:37 2021
00:25 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:29 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher
02:05 -!- greypw [~greypw@grey.pw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:10 -!- b10c [uid500648@id-500648.charlton.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:18 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-46-59-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
02:57 -!- harrow [~harrow@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:05 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:06 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:11 -!- harrow [~harrow@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:11 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""]
04:39 -!- CrashTestDummy3 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:43 -!- CrashTestDummy2 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
04:59 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
05:07 -!- ghost43_ [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:07 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:31 -!- CrashTestDummy [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:34 -!- CrashTestDummy3 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
05:47 < ariard> for the ones interested, a friendly reminder about the first transaction relay workshop happening tmrw on #l2-onchain-support (libera) at 19:00 UTC :)
05:47 < ariard> Gonna share open questions and resource pointers soon
06:59 -!- rottenwheel [~rottenwhe@user/rottenwheel] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:19 -!- CrashTestDummy2 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:22 -!- CrashTestDummy [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:30 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:30 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:42 -!- t-bast [~t-bast@user/t-bast] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:44 -!- t-bast [~t-bast@user/t-bast] has quit [Client Quit]
07:55 < yanmaani> harding: You could make the block size vary too, if we're in fantasyland
07:56 < yanmaani> say that each block has to *average* 1mb, but if you make a 0.5mb block you get 0.5mb of "tokens" 
07:56 < yanmaani> you can spend tokens to up the size limit to a max of say 8mb
08:53 < harding> yanmaani: yeah, I think maaku (Mark Friedenbach) had an idea and an analysis for bounded dynamic block sizes based on letting miners vary their PoW target, with those targeting higher PoW being able to create larger blocks (with, I think, incleases in PoW being quadratic or otherwise superlinear to size increases).  This was presented as helping smooth fee spikes and also partly mitigating the LN close swarm problem where many users all need 
08:53 < harding> their channels to close in the same range of upcoming blocks.  I thought maaku's idea was posted to the mailing list, but I didn't find it in a quick search; maybe it was presented at a Scaling Bitcoin conference?
08:57 < yanmaani> harding: mailing list has been flooded with PoS idiocy last few weeks, I might've missed it
08:57 < yanmaani> that could also work, yeah, but it's mostly theoretical cause hardfork
08:57 < yanmaani> Monero's approach is to have miners forfeit some block reward for extra size.
09:00 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:06 -!- user__ [~davterra@178.128.106.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:08 -!- davterra [~davterra@178.128.106.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
09:09 -!- user__ is now known as davterra
09:41 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@user/otoburb] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:01 -!- dllud [~dllud@136.138.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:08 -!- dllud [~dllud@136.138.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Changing host]
10:08 -!- dllud [~dllud@user/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:14 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:15 < harding> yanmaani: oh, no, I mean years ago.  Probably 2016.
10:19 < roconnor> wow. I had no idea about the PoS posts.  I muted that thread so long ago.
10:27 -!- andrewtoth [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:27 -!- andrewtoth [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:41 -!- andrewtoth_ [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:41 -!- andrewtoth [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:46 -!- andrewtoth_ [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
11:19 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:50 -!- b10c [uid500648@id-500648.charlton.irccloud.com] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
11:51 -!- smartin [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has quit [Quit: smartin]
11:52 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
12:07 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@host-78-77-216-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:15 -!- pinheadmz_ is now known as pinheadmz
12:21 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:22 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:35 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@host-78-77-216-135.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
12:36 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:37 -!- jesseposner [~jesse@2601:647:0:89:ec38:1bfb:5fdf:9317] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:42 -!- gene [~gene@2a02:6f8:2020:210:100::100e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:52 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@user/otoburb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:05 -!- CrashTestDummy3 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:09 -!- CrashTestDummy2 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
13:37 -!- gene [~gene@2a02:6f8:2020:210:100::100e] has quit [Quit: gene]
14:07 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:20 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:32 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:44 < yanmaani> roconnor: why doesn't the moderator clean it out? I understand the value of freedom of speech and all, but the mailing list is moderately technical 
14:45 < yanmaani> Can't they have a discussion on /r/cryptocurrency or something instead?
14:46 -!- robertspigler [~robertspi@2001:470:69fc:105::2d53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:06 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:35 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
17:19 < harding> Does anyone recall a discussion about a type of anti fee sniping where transactions would commit to the hash of the current chaintip at the time they were created, so that if there was even a one-block reorg, the transaction wouldn't be valid on the new best block chain, and so discourage fee sniping reorgs?  (Obviously that's throwing Nakamoto's reorg safety design out a window; I'm not looking to argue about the idea, just wondering if anyone 
17:19 < harding> remembers enough about that discussion that I can find it to cite it.)  I think maybe it was a jl2012 idea.
17:19 -!- rottenwheel [~rottenwhe@user/rottenwheel] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:21 < _aj_> harding: bip 115, also mentioned as something implementable via taproot annex in https://github.com/ajtowns/taproot-review/blob/master/week-6.md
19:30 < harding> _aj_: I thought of BIP115 and even checked it before posting, it's not really what I was thinking of since you need to put it in a script before you can use it in a transaction, so it's only effective at short-reorg anti fee sniping if you typically create your addresses, receive payment, and then spend those payments within a few blocks.  Using an annex sounds like what I want, although it looks like there wasn't any discussion in that week's 
19:30 < harding> meeting.  I was thinking there was a discussion from a few years previously about the subject in more depth that I could link to; however, I ended up writing my article so that I don't need the link, so now it's only my own curiousity wanting satisfaction.
19:33 < _aj_> harding: not sure where/if i've talked about the annex approach in any detail
19:34 < _aj_> oh, i talked about something similar in my scaling bitcoin talk in 2017 -- the idea there was to append it to the sighash so that you'd say [sig][sighash_all][123] and the 123 would imply the signature was committing to the blockhash at 123 blocks prior to the nlocktime
19:35 < harding> That sounds like what I remember.  I'll look that up.
19:35 < _aj_> harding: annex approach i'm currently thinking of is that you have "[123456][0xcafe]" which says "this tx must be after block 123456, and block 123456's hash must end in cafe"
19:40 < harding> _aj_: that's what I want, although I thought maybe it'd be more space efficient if you just had a bit somewhere (e.g. somewhere free like nVersion) that could be set to enable block hash commitments and, if that bit was set, then the nLockTime height was used to indicate which block (or the BIP68 height distance from when the UTXO was created, or whatever).
19:41 < harding> Oh, and the actual commitment to the block hash was implicit in the signature hash.
19:45 < harding> Haha, lol, I'm reading your 2017 presentation and that's partly what it does.
19:45 < harding> https://stanford2017.scalingbitcoin.org/files/Day2/Changes-without-unanimous-consent.pdf slide 26
19:54 -!- davterra [~davterra@178.128.106.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:56 -!- DeanWeen is now known as DeanGuss
19:56 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@nonplayercharacter.me] has quit [Changing host]
19:56 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@user/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:02 < _aj_> harding: yeah, doing it that was is super efficient, but kind of annoying to upgrade to since you have to update the way signatures work; using the annex spends an extra couple of bytes of witness but is a much smoother upgrade
20:03 < _aj_> harding: (doing it via the annex provides an excuse to have per-input nlocktime as well)
20:04 < harding> _aj_: indeed.  Even if we ultimately wanted to do it the efficient way, it would be worth starting the easy way and make sure people actually use it.
21:34 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:35 -!- CrashTestDummy2 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:37 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:39 -!- CrashTestDummy3 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:22 -!- dllud [~dllud@user/dllud] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in]
22:27 -!- dllud [~dllud@user/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:36 -!- rocket_fuel_ [sid2662@id-2662.charlton.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:40 -!- smartin [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:48 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:56 -!- b10c [uid500648@id-500648.charlton.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:57 -!- CrashTestDummy3 [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Tue Jun 15 00:00:38 2021