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13:19 < jeremyrubin> _aj_ now i am
13:20 < _aj_> hey, have you looked at ... uh, i on't even know how to phrase it? doing smart contract things with musig via sapio?
13:20 < _aj_> or adding any of liquid's proposed taproot opcodes to sapio, if that even makes sense? https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements/blob/master/doc/tapscript_opcodes.md
13:20 < _aj_> i have a proposal for doing lightning over taproot with ptlcs and stuff that i'll post RSN, but trying to implement it in python via the test_framework is ... not that bad i suppose, but kind of arduous
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13:21 < jeremyrubin> RSN?
13:22 < _aj_> real soon now
13:22 < jeremyrubin> ah
13:22 < jeremyrubin> the sorta answer is "yes"
13:23 < jeremyrubin> you should join ##miniscript since we're talking about rust miniscript extensions
13:23 < jeremyrubin> which is what you'd want for that
13:23 < jeremyrubin> w.r.t. musig, i think it's something that should happen auto-magically through Policy -> Miniscript Compiler
13:23 < _aj_> rust?
13:23 < jeremyrubin> sapio is a rust edsl
13:24 < _aj_> i don't follow? miniscript doesn't do musig yet, does it?
13:27 < jeremyrubin> ah no it doesn't.
13:27 < jeremyrubin> it also doesn't yet have taproot support
13:27 < jeremyrubin> so i'm 'waiting' on that a little bit for now
13:28 < gene> think sanket1729 is working on rust taproot stuff for rust-bitcoin and rust-miniscript
13:28 < jeremyrubin> but w.r.t musig, i'm not sure what specific support you'd want from Sapio on it v.s. what might exist in miniscript? Like some psbt fields or something?
13:28 < jeremyrubin> bigger picture w.r.t. sapio is that the backbone of a sapio contract expects a CTV clause, but there are also updatable (read, not statically enumerable) state transitions too
13:29 < jeremyrubin> this is done through the recently added effects system
13:30 < jeremyrubin> so if you had a thing that makes a 'more general' covenant than CTV currently allows, what you would do is implement it as a miniscript extension  (if not expressable natively) and then pass the arguments to derive a satisfying txn to the updatable clauses
13:30 < jeremyrubin> that's kinda a mouthful huh
13:30 < _aj_> i'm not really sure either i guess, probably better to have the conversation after i've finished/published the draft
13:30 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio/blob/master/sapio-contrib/src/contracts/op_return_chain.rs
13:30 < jeremyrubin> you can see this as a *really simple* example of a sapio contract with *no* CTV clauses
13:31 < jeremyrubin> it just lets you chain op returns with a signer
13:31 < jeremyrubin> that signer could be e.g. a musig?
13:31 < jeremyrubin> this ends up looking like this in the UX https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/1445855225902821386
13:33 < jeremyrubin> so i guess the short answer is "yes"? CTV is designed to be able to support arbitrary new stuff beyond ctv, but until there are concrete contracts of interest it's hard to see what sapio would do about it rn
13:34 < jeremyrubin> but i do have sketches of things like eltoo
13:34 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio/blob/master/sapio-contrib/src/contracts/eltoo_channel.rs
13:34 < jeremyrubin> but miniscript has no notion of an anyprevout key so it's not fully correct
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13:40 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: the eltoo sketch doesn't do htlcs, just balances, yeah?
13:43 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: so i'm trying revocable signatures with musig/ptlcs/ln-penalty ( https://github.com/LLFourn/witness-asymmetric-channel ) ; being able to write up that the pubkey is a musig(a,b) but there's a valid partial-signature by B conforming to musig2 nonces or something might be pleasant?
13:45 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: presumably you can simulate CTV via the liquid tapscript opcodes -- inspectnumoutputs <n> equal; then push all the data and construct a streaming sha256 hash of it all; then check the result equals whatever
13:46 < jeremyrubin> It does do HTLCs kinda
13:46 < jeremyrubin> you just would need to create the Outputs in an update to be HTLCs
13:46 < jeremyrubin> so it's generic to HTLCs or any other sub contract protocol
13:46 < jeremyrubin> I don't have an HTLC contract yet tho
13:47 < jeremyrubin> _aj_ i beleive so, it would actually be very simple to make CTV work on liquid by implementing CTVEmulator trait for LiquidEmulator that works that way
13:47 < jeremyrubin> https://learn.sapio-lang.org/ch05-01-ctv-emulator.html
13:48 < _aj_> (they need another soft fork to enable taproot and those opcodes)
13:48 < jeremyrubin> yeah
13:49 < jeremyrubin> you can also probably do a checksigfromstack emulator too
13:50 < jeremyrubin> my brain feels to small for the witness asym channels rn
13:50 < jeremyrubin> What would the Policy clause look like ideally?
13:51 < jeremyrubin> Is it AsymPK(a, b, Either<PartialA, PartialB>)? or just AsymPK(a, b)? or AsymPK(m)?
13:52 < jeremyrubin> is the satisfiability analysis something you'd want to put in an AnalysisDB of some sort where we only consider the script 'satisfiable' or something if we know  half a sig?
13:53 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: the txid is the same, you just have two different signatures. so if A posts the transaction, it's signed by A with nonces RA and B with nonce DB; and if B posts it's signed with DA and RB. if it's an old state, A knows DA, RA and RB and B knows DB, RA and RB, because the dlog of R{A,B} have been revealed, so the other person can recover both private keys
13:54 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: i'm not really sure what i want, i'd just like something that makes this possible to specify more declaratively than coding it in python has been?
13:55 < jeremyrubin> Ah i see what you're saying I think
13:56 < _aj_> https://github.com/ajtowns/bitcoin/blob/202109-ptlc-lnpenalty/test/functional/feature_ln_ptlc.py#L176 for comparison
13:58 < jeremyrubin> i think it's doable to model this in sapio, limited by the fact that I don't really get it fully
13:58 < jeremyrubin> gimme a few minutes and i'll share something that seems like a sketch of it?
13:58 < _aj_> :) <_aj_> [...] probably better to have the conversation after i've finished/published the draft
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14:17 < jeremyrubin> hmmm
14:17 < jeremyrubin> so i spent some time thinking on how to do it in Sapio
14:17 < jeremyrubin> and it is doable
14:18 < jeremyrubin> but i think you'd really want to get some PSBT support for specific nonces
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14:31 < jeremyrubin> (going to #sapio to follow up on this a bit more)
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