--- Log opened Thu Nov 18 00:00:36 2021
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03:06 < andytoshi> roconnor: i think it's actually not as bad as that, though it will be less intuitive and the "recovery table" will be 30x the size
03:06 < andytoshi> i think the splitting process will change as follows
03:07 < andytoshi> 1. Rather than generating shares S, A initially, you have to generate S, A, C
03:08 < andytoshi> 2. Then after choosing the appropriate "Make share F" (or whatever) volvelle, spinning it to a character from S and looking up the character from A (this is currently the entire process for constructing share F)...
03:08 < andytoshi> ...you also need to use an additional volvelle, spin it to F (the share you are making) and then look up the character from C
03:09 < andytoshi> 3. then add the two results from the previous step. This gives you share F
03:10 < andytoshi> Then on the recovery side, the process is basically identical. You look up the 3 recovery symbols (there are about 4500 choices, which we could cram onto a couple pages, if we just enumerate all 31-choose-3 possibilities but maybe we can be more clever?)
03:10 < andytoshi> then transform the 3 shares you have and add the results together. My estimate is that the ~10 minute recovery process becomes ~20 minutes
03:12 < andytoshi> Having said this, because you have these extra steps and you have 30 more volvelles, it should probably be a different document (or at least, the postscript file should have a flag indicating which version to render)
03:14 < andytoshi> One thought I had for reducing the amount of paper would be to say "you can only have 12 shares [the 2 you generate by hand then 10 which you use volvelles for] by default, turn on the expansion pack to get all 31"
03:18 < andytoshi> roconnor: another, unrelated thought, was that the cryptosteel has 48 tile spaces on each side. it would be nice if i could fit a whole one of these onto a single side, including the HRP ... which i can do with a 44-char codeword as long as the HRP is only 3 characters (since there is the '1' separator which takes a slot)
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06:46 < roconnor> [Monday, November 15, 2021] [8:25:45 AM EST] <roconnor> If I increase the number of characters for the ID from 3 to 4, then we get 45 data characters total for 128-bit entropy, plus a 3 character HRP yields 48 characters.
06:46 < roconnor> I counting the separator as part of the HRP, which it isn't.
06:47 < roconnor> anyhow 2 character HRP, "ms" and "1"
06:49 < roconnor> Minor point regarding 2.;  IIRC the volvelles are designed so currently you never set the pointer to a character from the secret share.
06:50 < roconnor> secret characters are only ever read off of the top disc.
06:50 < roconnor> "side channel resistence."
06:51 < andytoshi> ok, that's reasonable
06:59 < sipa> roconnor: ha, nice
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07:42 < andytoshi> roconnor: i opened https://github.com/roconnor-blockstream/SSS32/pull/14 with some cosmetic changes to the top wheel
07:50 < roconnor> I'm slightly tempted to put 0 between the N and the P.
07:50 < andytoshi> hehe, that occured to me as well
07:50 < andytoshi> i think better not to
07:50 < roconnor> Are you delibrately shuffling the X and the 9?
07:51 < andytoshi> ah oops no
07:51 < roconnor> ha. I thought you were trying to disambiguate the 9 and the 6 in some very confusing way. 
07:52 < andytoshi> i meant to switch numeric 5 and 7 (base32 8/9), not numeric 5 and 6 (base32 X/9)
07:53 < andytoshi> updated the PR
07:53 < sipa> if you're going to treat error correction as something that will always be outsourced to software, it may be reasonable to search for a code with a better distance than BCH codes can
07:53 < sipa> it'll be expensive to do error correction, but for 4 errors perhaps it's still feasible
07:56 < roconnor> I mean we also want a code that is linear (affine) to be commutative with SSS, and one whose checksum can be created/verified by hand.
07:56 < sipa> right, it'd still be a linear cyclic code
07:56 < sipa> but just found by trying random (or exhaustively) lots of generators over GF(32) of the desired degree
07:57 < sipa> gmax and i did some work on that a while back
07:58 < roconnor> I'm not familar with the theory of linear ECCs.
07:59 < sipa> linear = the code can be written as a vector over some ring/field, and valid codewords are defined as those which satisfy M*code=C, for some matrix M and constant vector C
07:59 < andytoshi> if there's a class of code that is easier to hand-verify/compute, that'd be great... but honestly these BCH codes are pretty easy to use
08:00 < andytoshi> and the distance-to-checksum ratio is not too bad
08:00 < sipa> in terms of checksum computation, this would be identical to BCH
08:00 < sipa> it's just modulo some generator
08:00 < sipa> but the generator can literally be any polynomial, and is selected computationally to have the desired properties
08:01 < sipa> rather than being constructed algebraically to permit BCH error correction
08:01 < andytoshi> oh i see, you mean just grind through _all_ codes to find one with a high distance-to-checksum-size ratio
08:01 < andytoshi> even if you can't use a standard bch decoder
08:01 < sipa> the downside is that error correction is essentially also an exhaustive search (though using meet-in-the-middle, an O(sqrt) one)
08:02 < roconnor> Is that fesible for 93 characters?
08:02 < andytoshi> my feeling is that sticking with BCH with make our lives easier from a design (and design justification) point of view .. vs saving one checksum character
08:02 < andytoshi> if we could save 3 or 4 checksum chars
08:03 < andytoshi> that would change my mind i think
08:03 < andytoshi> or get distance 11, with a 13-char checksum
08:05 < sipa> the singleton bound implies that for >31 length, and distance 9, you need strictly more than 8 checksum characters
08:10 < sipa> there is a 8-character checksum that has distance 7 up to length 60 (which includes the 8 checksum characters)
08:12 < sipa> wait, unsure
08:14 < andytoshi> i really like having distance 9, vs 7
08:14 < andytoshi> and am willing to do twice as much work by hand to get it
08:14 < andytoshi> kanzure: i wonder if you would agree with that statement, as a potential user
08:15 < andytoshi> if you could encode a secret in 30-40 minutes, and be able to correct up to 3 errors ..... or encode in 60-90 minutes and be able to correct up to 4
08:19 < roconnor> length 60 is too short for 256 bits.
08:20 < sipa> actually the best is a length=42 code with 8 checksum characters, at distance 7
08:20 < sipa> the one i was talking about above is a distance 6
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08:24 < roconnor> length 42 is far too short. :)
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08:47 < roconnor> andytoshi: I'm not following your 1024th of a circle math.
08:48 < roconnor> OTOH, I also don't remember how I chose the angle beyond trying to get the squares to be spread out and the letters not overlapping.
08:48 < andytoshi> roconnor: i couldn't understand where your number 139 came from so i spent some time trying to reverse-engineer it (mostly guessing things and then trying to tweak it and seeing whether it fucked up the distribution)
08:48 < andytoshi> and what i landed on was:
08:49 < andytoshi> the bottom wheel is drawn by drawing 32 elements in a circle, equally spaced (so 11.25 degrees apart), then repeating this with increasing-radius circles
08:49 < andytoshi> and each circle is offset by this magic number 139
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08:49 < andytoshi> and the goal is, that from the innermost cirle to the outermost one, we basically rotate the circle by one letter-space's worth .. 11.25 degrees
08:50 < andytoshi> there are 32 circles, and 11.25 degrees is 1/32 of 360 degrees
08:50 < roconnor> I don't think that the goal.
08:50 < andytoshi> lol oh, ok
08:50 < roconnor> does it happen?
08:51 < andytoshi> it does happen .. where "it" is that every 1/1024th of a rotation is occupied by one of the 1024 symbols
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08:52 < sipa> ok i dusted off my old cyclic code analysis code
08:52 < andytoshi> maybe there's another way i can approach this .... regardless of where 139 came from, it is true that i can offset it by arbitrary multiples of 11.25 without changing the geometric distribution of symbols, because every letter is spaced 11.25 degrees from its neighbors
08:52 < sipa> trying to analyze 13-checksum codes for behavior with 5 errors...
08:52 < andytoshi> which means that if i adjust 139 to 94, the bottom wheel will have the same layout
08:52 < andytoshi> and the top wheel, empirically, looks easier to mentally organize
08:52 < roconnor> but I did 139*32 mod 360 and didn't come up with 360/1024.
08:53 < roconnor> clearly since it isn't an integer.
08:54 < andytoshi> hmm, crap, i closed the calculator with the history of how i came up with this
08:54 < roconnor> was it your TI-85?
08:54 < andytoshi> lol, no, it was a bc session
08:55 < andytoshi> ok, so 139*32 mod 360 is roughly equal to 360 * 11.25/32
08:58 < andytoshi> hmm, which is 360 * 360/1024
08:59 < sipa> i am happy to announce that at least one of the dist=9 checksum=13 length=93 codes is actually distance 11 up to length 29
08:59 < andytoshi> oo neat
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08:59 < roconnor> andytoshi: sipa siad length 29
09:00 < sipa> trying to analyze a bit further, but it's like quartic or quintic in the length
09:00 < andytoshi> yeah, i guess that's not really useful for us
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09:00 < andytoshi> roconnor: anyway .. my thinking was that some of those 360s would go away if i somehow normalized everything to circumference=1, and my argument would make sense
09:01 < andytoshi> but there are people physically around me trying to talk about blockstream strategy and so it's hard to think about this
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09:02 < roconnor> you should maybe focus on real work.
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09:03 < sipa> roconnor: you mean, the stuff being discussed here, right?
09:03 < andytoshi> well, this work lets me custody my bitcoins safely
09:03 < andytoshi> and the blockstream work gets me a couple thousand bucks a week
09:03 < andytoshi> so..
09:04 < andytoshi> (i'm joking, it is true that i shuold be focusing on my job, esp as several people came to austin to meet with me in person)
09:08 < andytoshi> roconnor: having said that, would you like me to replace my long-winded commit message about 139 with a simple argument that i'm allowed to harmlessly change it by 11.25
09:08 < andytoshi> and empirically, i like the look of 94 (139 minus 11.25*4) better than 139
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09:12 < roconnor> yes.
09:16 < andytoshi> ok, pushed a new commit comment
09:26 < andytoshi> i wonder if there's a good way to verify that my permutation is actually a permutation. and like, i didn't repeat any indices
09:26 < andytoshi> i guess we'd have to implement a sort function and then compare equality
09:29 < andytoshi> oh, i guess for code review purposes, you can just copy/paste them both into octave, and do sort(m1) == sort(m2)
09:29 < andytoshi> (octave because it lets you construct vectors without adding any commas or anything)
09:38 < roconnor> I just let the CIA repeat letters for me.
09:40 < andytoshi> lol
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10:14 < kanzure> andytoshi: twice as much work by hand does not concern me
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10:58 < kanzure> not okay with exponential work tho
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11:20 < sipa> kanzure: the exponential work would be something outsource to a computer, obviously
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12:40 < yanmaani1> andytoshi: If the cartel loses 51%, yes, but assuming they can bribe enough miners, no
12:41 < yanmaani1> also, follow-up: Can a sub-cartel of the 51% do the same thing?
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12:53 < andytoshi> roconnor: updated https://github.com/apoelstra/SSS32/tree/russ32 with a new checksum worksheet where i was able to fit 45 squares into a single ladder, landscape orientation, by compacting the initial lines
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12:54 < andytoshi> i am increasingly leaning toward "just do 128 bits twice" as a means to checksum 256 bits...i get that it's potentially error-prone to keep the two halves straight but i think i can just use a character of the header to keep it straight
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14:19 < roconnor> I was about to say I failed to find my calculator.
14:19 < roconnor> but then I was like, hey I should look in this box I haven't opened.
14:19 < roconnor> and here it is.
14:20 < roconnor> andytoshi: did you get a manual with yours?
14:22 < roconnor> oh I seem to have exactly 4 AAA batteries left.
14:25 < roconnor> seems to work.
14:25 < roconnor> slowly
14:30 < andytoshi> roconnor: afraid not, it was just a calculator in a USPS box
14:30 < roconnor> Mine has one.
14:30 < andytoshi> nice
14:31 < sipa> wow, calculators in those days came with a USPS box? :o
14:31 < andytoshi> :)
14:32 < roconnor> it seems to still have my pong game I wrote.
14:34 < sipa> (x^13 + 10*x^12 + 30*x^11 + 14*x^10 + 26*x^9 + 17*x^7 + 28*x^6 + 18*x^5 + 18*x^4 + 5*x^3 + 26*x^2 + 6*x + 22) has distance 11 up to length 24
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14:35 < roconnor> C-PONG 1.2 by Russell O'Connor (C) Copyright 1995 All Rights Reseved
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14:36 < andytoshi> :D
14:37 < sipa> my earlier report of length 29 was incorrect
14:37 < sipa> i just... looked in the wrong place of the output of my analysis
14:38 < roconnor> I was thinkings to myself that your codes are just getting worse and worse.
14:42 < andytoshi> lol
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15:52 < sipa> roconnor: the second generator behaves identical
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19:19 < roconnor> The TI-85's rotate and shift functions are particularly stupid and useless for our task (or any task).
19:20 < roconnor> But with enough ands ors multiplication and division, we should be able to assemble something.
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 19 00:00:37 2021