--- Log opened Fri Nov 19 00:00:37 2021
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03:49 < roconnor> andytoshi: small issue.  BIP-39 doesn't encode the master seed.  The mnenonic itself is hashed to produce the master seed.
03:51 < roconnor> so I guess we need to disambiguate between an encoding of the master seed and an enconding of a mnemonic with different HRPs.
03:52 < roconnor> Note that for bip39, the resulting master seed depends on your choice of language.
03:56 < andytoshi> roconnor: right -- gmax was telling me in another channel that i should just hash it to get the master seed and then forget about bip39 entirely
03:56 < andytoshi> but i think in that case i would lose the ability to import into a ledger
03:57 < andytoshi> but yeah .. i should find a way to disambiguate
03:59 < roconnor> the master seed is 512 bytes.
03:59 < roconnor> can you use the cold card with a master seed?
04:00 < roconnor> ms1 vs mn1 I was thinking.
04:03 < roconnor> use 2 of the index characters in mn1 to encode the ISO 639-1 langauge code.
04:03 < roconnor> um bt we are limited to bech32.
04:04 < roconnor> so I guess use 8 for B and 0 for O and um L for I?
04:05 < roconnor> there are two zh wordlists.
04:06 < andytoshi> 512 bits ... wtf, why is every single part of this standard stupid
04:06 < roconnor> It's so terrible.
04:07 < andytoshi> i'm ok with ms1 vs mn1
04:07 < roconnor> The worst thing is that if I make ms1 and mn1 standards, everyone will use mn1, and it will actually be worse.
04:07 < andytoshi> i am tempted to say "no support for non-english wordlists" .. or alternately "the wordlist should be assumed from context"
04:08 < andytoshi> roconnor: yeah, good point, we should mkae bip39 meaningfully less nice to use
04:08 < roconnor> I don't know.  If core ends up only supporting ms1 imports, maybe it will help.
04:08 < andytoshi> we can probably convince jade to only support ms1 imports as well
04:10 < roconnor> If we drop trying to 128 bits into 48 characters we can use longer prefixes for mn1 to annoy people.
04:10 < roconnor> like mn1en1 for english
04:10 < roconnor> and mn1ja1 for japanese.
04:10 < andytoshi> maybe for bip39 that's the way to go, yeah
04:11 < roconnor> and mn1hzsimplified1 for chinese ... I don't know what to do about simplified vs tranditional chinese.
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04:12 < andytoshi> it's pretty pathetic that bip39 does not specify any way to describe the wordlists
04:12 < roconnor> it was supposed to be application specific.
04:12 < roconnor> not interopertable.
04:13 < andytoshi> lol
04:13 < roconnor> "there are no constraints on sentence structure and clients are free to implement their own wordlists or even whole sentence generators, allowing for flexibility in wordlists for typo detection or other purposes. "
04:14 < andytoshi> so ... i think we should prioritize (a) not spending too much time thinking about bip39 or filling in its gaps; (b) really not spend much time thinking about non-english wordlists, which aren't even supported by any bitcoin wallets afaik
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04:14 < roconnor> "Since the vast majority of BIP39 wallets supports only the English wordlist, it is strongly discouraged to use non-English wordlists for generating the mnemonic sentences. "
04:14 < andytoshi> and having said that, for proper bip39 support are we expecting users to use the ti-85 program to compute checksums?
04:14 < roconnor> ya many mn1 for english, mn1ja1 for japansese.
04:15 < roconnor> andytoshi: for converting mn1 back to bip39, yes.
04:16 < andytoshi> ok, +1 to mn1 for english ... and for japanese i seriously would propose just telling people to use the ID field to somehow indicate it
04:16 < andytoshi> if the authors of bip39 didn't bother trying to specify this, why should we bail them out?
04:17 < andytoshi> especially as, given that line about "whole sentence generators" etc, there is a literally unbounded number of languages
04:17 < roconnor> true that.
04:17 < andytoshi> they just added a czech one, andit turns out that one is not even alphabetized https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/493#issuecomment-970511014
04:17 < roconnor> all that converting words to bits is all there just to make the checksum calculation.
04:18 < andytoshi> yeah
04:18 < roconnor> And their goal of "The mnemonic must encode entropy in a multiple of 32 bits. "
04:18 < roconnor> serves no purpose since the words themselves are hashed.
04:21 < andytoshi> yeah :/
04:22 < roconnor> andytoshi: that's some serious CIA stuff in the Czech word list.
04:22 < andytoshi> lol
04:23 < andytoshi> so -- i think we landed on "use mn1 to indicate that this is a bip39 seed, provide 'standard' instructions for conversion that involves obscure ancient 90s hardware and assumes english words, warn the user that they will need to do ad-hoc things if they used a non-english word list, advise them to stop using bip39"
04:23 < andytoshi> now, suppose though that they are using slip39 .. do we want yet another prefix for that
04:26 < andytoshi> actually -- let's just shunt the bip39 stuff into an "appendix" which provides a different checksum worksheet with a different HRP and an extra character slot or two to fit the checksum (under the assumption that the user is starting with a bip39 seed rather than generating one with dice, or that they have a hww or something that will help them with the checksum at setup time)
04:26 < andytoshi> do the same for slip39, though for slip39 we could also include a "words to bech32 chars" conversion chart
04:27 < roconnor> slip39 actually encodes the master seed.
04:27 < andytoshi> it does, but a pbkdf'd version of it i believe
04:28 < roconnor> My only point is that the translation is unambigous.
04:28 < andytoshi> ah i understand
04:29 < roconnor> oh but I guess maybe you want a standard for encoding the words of a slip39 ... share?
04:29 < roconnor> I don't think anyone should be doing that.
04:30 < roconnor> actually with mn1 we don't need the calculator anymore.
04:30 < roconnor> because we don't have to truncate the checksum.
04:30 < andytoshi> oh nice
04:31 < roconnor> I mean, it depends on if you want to randomly generate a new mnemonic.
04:31 < roconnor> you need a calculator for that.
04:31 < andytoshi> roconnor: so...while i agree that trying to encode a slip39 share (presumably, including the header and checksum and all) sounds like a bad dangerous idea, because you're basically nesting two similar-but-incompatible SSS schemes
04:31 < andytoshi> i think if we give bip39 users a HRP and extra chars for the purpose of "encoding the shit that you already have"
04:32 < andytoshi> we ought to extend the same courtesy to slip39 users
04:32 < andytoshi> for randomly generating a new mnemonic ... i think we should just say "we only support or advise that for ms32"
04:32 < roconnor> but the reason for splitting up bip39 is that you want to do SSS and you have a legacy bip39 wallet.
04:32 < roconnor> but slip39 already supports SSS.
04:33 < andytoshi> that's fair, but ms32 has a longer checksum and you can do it _by hand_, which is a meaningfully new feature
04:33 < roconnor> and if you want to split it up by hand, then you should recover the master seed and split that up with ms1.
04:33 < andytoshi> yeah that's fair
04:33 < andytoshi> i guess, i agree with what you're saying but my discomfort is that it feels we're rewarding bip39 for being shit
04:34 < roconnor> If bip39 didn't have a 512 bit master seed, that would be my recomendation there too.
04:34 < andytoshi> ok, i'm happy with that
04:34 < andytoshi> but we should say it somewhere in the document :P
04:34 < roconnor> oops well, bip39 isn't reversable, so I guess you'd maybe still want to keep the original maybe.
04:35 < andytoshi> ah, right, i think that's a sounder argument
04:35 < andytoshi> and actually, that is my reason for keeping my words around
04:35 < andytoshi> i'd be willing to deal with a fair bit of annoying conversion crap, it's not like i do this every day, but if i literally can't get the words back, and i need those words to work with several popular hwws..
04:36 < roconnor> I mean "need" is somewhat strong but yes.
04:36 < andytoshi> although maybe in the future i'll have something that supports ms32 natively, and then my only reason would be that the seed is 512 fucking bits
04:36 < andytoshi> yeah :)
04:36 < roconnor> I think the key material being shorter is maybe more important.
04:36 < andytoshi> ok. it sounds like we agree on the conclusion and what action to take
04:38 < andytoshi> (action being: 1. add an appendix with a "mn1" worksheet with an extra character or two, maybe another one for 264-bit 24-word mnemonics, and maybe a words-to-bits-to-bech32 conversion worksheet, and a diatribe of some sort explaining it all"
04:38 < andytoshi> 2. list both ms1 and mn1 as "official" hrps for this standard
04:38 < roconnor> ;_; we are just going to end up in a world where everyone use mn1 and the standard says, take this bech32 list, verify it's checksum, decode it, verify that checksum, convert to a list of english words, PBKDF2 it and get a 512-bit master seed.
04:39 < roconnor> the good news is that core will never support mn1.
04:40 < roconnor> So what does coldcard support?
04:41 < andytoshi> good question, definitely bip39 but i haven't looked at what else
04:41 < andytoshi> coldcard is totally open source (as is trezor's software) and would be more open than other hwws to supporting ms1 though, fwiw
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04:42 < roconnor> I'm just going to stick mn1 in another document, maybe in another repo.
04:42 < andytoshi> heh, googling around i get comments from both coldcard and ledger that slip39 is "on the roadmap"
04:43 < andytoshi> roconnor: perfect, sounds good to me
04:43 < roconnor> maybe under a different username.
04:43 < andytoshi> lol!
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04:43 < roconnor> someone not associated with me.
04:43 < andytoshi> i mean, you could stick it under the contrib/ directory and if you want i can do it so that your name isn't on the git blame at all
04:43 < andytoshi> but maybe you want someone more distant :P
04:46 < andytoshi> i think we could also get stepan from specter wallet to support ms1
04:49 < andytoshi> but the order of operations i think is -- finish the spec, obviously, including mn1 (but sideline it somehow and try not to talk about it); then ask for a BIP number; then try to make some media noise about these cool volvelles and see if there is any popular support (i really think there will be, but if we get crickets i guess that's the end of the road)
04:49 < andytoshi> then regardless of popularity i'm sure we can get Jade to support it, and maybe Bitcoin Core
04:49 < andytoshi> and with enough popularity we can probably convince other hwws to support it (i mean, it's technically not hard at all, especially since everyone already knows the bech32 alphabet because of segwit)
04:50 < andytoshi> and provided we _don't_ advise anyone to directly support mn1 importing
04:50 < andytoshi> i think the result will be a world where people actually are using ms1
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07:20 < andytoshi> roconnor: would you like me to start PR'ing to change the code and clean up/compress the checksum worksheet?
07:20 < andytoshi> i have another couple hours today of partially-distracted time to work on this but then i need to task-switch back to real work
07:37 < roconnor> I guess so.  I kinda want to rewrite the whole thing though.
07:37 < roconnor> I mean the whole worksheet generation.
07:37 < roconnor> make sure it can still produce examples.
07:38 < roconnor> make sure it can be resued used to draw tiny examples to be placed elsewhere.
07:38 < roconnor> add little numbers 1-48+ to the corners of each input box.
07:38 < andytoshi> ok, if you want to rewrite then i'll stop PRing :)
07:39 < roconnor> add thicker breaks or other markers to every 4 blocks of inputs.
07:39 < andytoshi> all of my changes to the worksheet have also required a pretty-much rewrite of that page
07:39 < andytoshi> so i'll let you do it, since you have a clearer vision of where you want to go with it
07:39 < sipa> the third generator is only distance 11 up to length 19
07:40 < roconnor> sipa: but it looks so much like the first one.  It also has a zero in it.
07:40 < sipa> also, there is an isomorphism class or whatever that my bch code generator is aware of, and divided out
07:40 < sipa> there are actually 840 generators
07:41 < sipa> but their error detection behavior (at the symbol level) for each can be grouped into 3 partitions, and one representative of each partition is what i gave
07:42 < roconnor> do any of them begin with 0*x^12 + 1*x^11 + 0*x^10?
07:42 < sipa> no
07:43 < sipa> none even start with 0*x^12
07:44 < sipa> https://0bin.net/paste/35BYQONd#PXjeKT5UZ2wCFxjZfDwKj6ZsuSICdeH78HjHNYCpEp0
07:44 < roconnor> base32
07:45 < sipa> coefficients from x^12 down to x^0; 0-9 means 0-9; A-V means 10-31
07:46 < roconnor> there are some 01 substrings but no 010.
07:47 < andytoshi> is it surprising that 0 is the only x^12 coefficient that doesn't appear?
07:47 < sipa> there is probably a good reason for that, but i have no idea why
07:48 < sipa> 0 cannot be the x^0 coefficient, or the generator would be divisible by x
07:48 < sipa> (which has terrible error detection qualities)
07:53 < sipa> in fact, 0 only occurs as coefficient of x^5 and x^8
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07:56 < roconnor> a sequence of 0 1 (the coeffecient of x^12) would also have been good, but no luck.
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09:01 < roconnor> I don't know.  Maybe the codes with 0 1 1 are nice.
09:08 < roconnor> 0 1 1 is always followed by the coefficent of x^11
09:16 < andytoshi> cute. i tried generating the table for A5NS0115K3DEP and the 5th character is always X
09:16 < roconnor> sipa: there are 6 version of 0 1 1, are they evenly split between all the equivalence classes?
09:17 < andytoshi> i'm curious what the equivalence classes look like (or is this pastebin a dump of an entire class?)
09:18 < andytoshi> oh, yeah, not "always X" but "always the coefficient of x^11"
09:20 < andytoshi> so, from a user POV, really what i want to see are Qs .. and other patterns don't really help, i think
09:20 < roconnor> I mean if we have a constant value, we can prefill them in the ladder.
09:20 < roconnor> It doesn't actually save any work, but it is kinda cute.
09:20 < sipa> i think we discovered that (a) reversing the coefficients of a generator leaves error detection properties unchanged (which corresponds to inverting all its roots)
09:20 < andytoshi> yeah, and it'd be a nice visual anchor
09:21 < sipa> and (b) squaring all coefficients
09:21 < sipa> note that reversing the coefficients isn't directly obvious, because generators are given in monic form, and naively reversing the order of the coefficients gives you generally a non-monic polynomial
09:28 < roconnor> are those symmetries included in your 850?
09:29 < sipa> yes
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09:55 < roconnor> andytoshi: things like 17EQDDD06BEDA will a zillion repeated coefficents may be interesting too.
09:55 < andytoshi> musing about using non-monic polynomials ... like suppose you took 9DRI0999TD8QQ and divided every coefficient by 9
09:55 < andytoshi> hehe i was almost looking for the same thing .. i was looking for a repeated coefficient after a 0
09:57 < roconnor> mod g(x) and mod c*g(x) form equal equivalence relations when c is non-zero and from a field.
09:57 < andytoshi> i guess you don't gain anything by scaling the polynomial
09:57 < andytoshi> yeah
09:57 < andytoshi> well, i mean, computationally you don't gain anything
09:57 < andytoshi> it's more than just equal equivalence relations
09:57 < roconnor> right because dividing by the leading coefficent is part of the algorithm.
09:57 < andytoshi> yep
09:58 < andytoshi> glad you saw that, i was struggling to type it out :P
09:58 < roconnor> also V53S0VVV95U22
09:59 < roconnor> which is the reverseish of 17EQDDD06BEDA
10:00 < andytoshi> the repeated coefficients look cool, it results in repeated digits in every single lookup table entry
10:01 < andytoshi> which will save volvelle spinning and make it easier to remember them
10:01 < andytoshi> i just tried 17EQDDD06BEDA, lemme try the reverse..
10:02 < andytoshi> i don't think the reverse is any more (or less) interesting
10:03 < roconnor> no constant coefficents then.
10:03 < andytoshi> correct, just repeats
10:04 < andytoshi> well, and the 5th coeff looks like it's a constant multiple of the 11th
10:04 < andytoshi> but that's not constant enough to prefill anything
10:04 < roconnor> Actually I'm not sure how a constant coefficent is possible
10:05 < roconnor> because multipling the inputs by a constant should correspond to multiplying the outputs by a constant.
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10:05 < andytoshi> i think a constant Q might be possible if you had a ton of 0s
10:05 < andytoshi> but yeah
10:06 < roconnor> but you had like a constant X.
10:06 < andytoshi> ah, no, a was misreading
10:06 < andytoshi> the X was constant in a single column of my table
10:06 < andytoshi> but that's because the column had a constant 11th coefficient :)
10:06 < andytoshi> err constant 13th
10:06 < roconnor> oh I see
10:07 < roconnor> Anyhow, using one of these tripple coefficent words is good.
10:08 < roconnor> I haven't grepped for quadruples.
10:08 < andytoshi> https://www.wpsoftware.net/pix/2021-11-19_174111.png is what a triple coefficient's table looks like
10:09 < andytoshi> you can see that the 5th character is "constant" per column and then followed by a repeat
10:10 < roconnor> that's the 0XXX version I guess.
10:10 < andytoshi> heh yep
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10:11 < andytoshi> i don't see any quads in pieter's list
10:11 < roconnor> Right the QP entry is the polynomial.
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10:12 < andytoshi> oh cute, ofc
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10:13 < andytoshi> all the interesting ones look like cognates of that one
10:13 < andytoshi> "cognate" meaning they have the same repeat pattern
10:13 < andytoshi> "interesting" meaning that they have a triple and a doule
10:13 < andytoshi> double
10:16 < andytoshi> i think it'd be definitely worth switching to one of them, assuming it still has distance 9, because from a user POV repeated digits reduce cognitive load (and helps prevent insertion/deletion/shift errors if the doubles are always in the same place)
10:17 < andytoshi> and it reduces the amount of volvelle spinning :P
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10:34 < roconnor> I agree.
10:36 < sipa> if there are useful properties of the generator which are more important than its length, i can search for longer codes too
10:38 < sipa> what's the minimum number of data characters you need ?
10:40 < sipa> there are 26475 generators for 14 character checksums, length 93, distance 9
10:43 < sipa> https://0bin.net/paste/TW8Z-2IR#HkfbZsw8AtlhZSy-l63Iasnrkl8Wl8BBlcn1GuHAsig
10:43 < roconnor> I think the length is the most important parameters.
10:43 < roconnor> the amount of work done by hand is like quadratic in the length.
10:44 < roconnor> maybe if there were a long sequence of 0 coefficents.
10:44 < roconnor> even still.
10:47 < sipa> there are 1260 15-character generators of length 93 distance 10, and 13485 15-character generators of length 93 distance 9
10:50 < sipa> also 13890 12-character generators of length 93 distance 8 (in 96 equivalence classes); some of those may actually be distance 9
10:50 < sipa> if non-BCH correction is acceptable
10:51 < sipa> how many data characters do you absolutely need?
10:52 < roconnor> I have no criteron for choosing that.
10:52 < roconnor> I just guessed 4.
10:53 < roconnor> oh oops data characters
10:54 < roconnor> Let's say I need ceil(256/5)+5 data chars
10:54 < roconnor> so 57
10:54 < roconnor> is that right?
10:55 < sipa> assuming integer arithmetic, yes
10:55 < sipa> so 69 total for 12 checksum charactersd
10:55 < roconnor> oh right that excludes the checksum.
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11:06 < sipa> answer is: none of the 96 classes of 12-char dist-8 len-93 codes are actually dist-9 len-69
11:06 < roconnor> good to know.
11:07 < gene> nice
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12:11 < sipa> none of the dist=7 length=93,205,341 degree=12 BCH codes are dist=9 length=69
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19:28 < sipa> roconnor: so i may try to do a search for random degree=12 generators which are dist=9 len=69
19:29 < sipa> but when i do that, i can bias/select for generators which have specific properties, like repeating zeros or whatever
19:46 < roconnor> 0 1 (repeat of highest non-monic coefficent) would be very cool.
19:47 < roconnor> sipa: beyond that, long substrings (greater than 3) of identical coefficents is nice, with strings of 0s being even nicer.
19:51 < sipa> you mean the sequence [0,1,highest non-1 coef] anywhere?
19:57 < roconnor> the coefficent for x^11.
19:58 < roconnor> but yes that sequence anywhere 0 1 repeat of the coefficent for x^11
19:59 < roconnor> To be more specific, I'm looking for a value such that a*x^13 + b*x^12 mod g(x) contains the sequence a b.
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 20 00:00:38 2021