--- Log opened Tue Nov 23 00:00:40 2021
00:10 -!- _0x1d3 [sid43116@tinside.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:10 -!- solocshaw [~Thunderbi@gateway/vpn/pia/solocshaw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:14 -!- _0x1d3 [sid43116@id-43116.tinside.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:14 -!- amiti [sid373138@id-373138.lymington.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
00:16 -!- peace777_ [sid338452@hampstead.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:17 -!- amiti [sid373138@id-373138.lymington.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:19 -!- peace777_ [sid338452@id-338452.hampstead.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:28 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:46 -!- yakshaver123 is now known as yakshaver
01:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:26 -!- hendi [sid489601@lymington.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
01:26 -!- yuanti [sid16585@tinside.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:27 -!- hendi [sid489601@id-489601.lymington.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:29 -!- yuanti [sid16585@id-16585.tinside.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:47 -!- yuanti [sid16585@id-16585.tinside.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:48 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:50 -!- yuanti [sid16585@id-16585.tinside.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:52 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:02 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:02 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-103.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:04 -!- kexkey_ [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-87.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:31 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:33 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:46 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
03:08 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
03:47 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:48 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:04 -!- plankster [~plankster@user/plankers] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:05 -!- plank [~plankster@user/plankers] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
04:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
04:50 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
04:58 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
05:03 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:14 -!- smartin [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:22 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:31 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
05:36 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""]
05:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:41 -!- z9z0b3t1_ [~z9z0b3t1c@host86-142-233-89.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
05:50 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:51 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:25 -!- b10c [uid500648@id-500648.ilkley.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:27 -!- z9z0b3t1c [z9z0b3t1c@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/z9z0b3t1c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:58 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:59 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:10 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@coq/roconnor] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:17 -!- kexkey_ [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-158.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:20 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-103.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
07:27 -!- MatrixBot1234510 [~matrixbot@51.15.54.153] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:48 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:49 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:52 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:53 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:56 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Client Quit]
07:57 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-174.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:57 -!- elichai2 [sid212594@hampstead.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
07:57 -!- _0x1d3 [sid43116@id-43116.tinside.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
07:58 -!- elichai2 [sid212594@id-212594.hampstead.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:58 -!- _0x1d3 [sid43116@id-43116.tinside.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:59 -!- kexkey_ [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-158.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:04 -!- gazab [sid6611@user/gazab] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:04 -!- hendi [sid489601@id-489601.lymington.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:04 -!- FelixWeis [sid154231@hampstead.irccloud.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:04 -!- smartin [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:05 -!- smartin [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:05 -!- b10c [uid500648@id-500648.ilkley.irccloud.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:06 -!- elichai2 [sid212594@id-212594.hampstead.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:06 -!- elichai2 [sid212594@id-212594.hampstead.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:06 -!- b10c [uid500648@5.254.36.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:06 -!- gazab [sid6611@user/gazab] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:07 -!- hendi [sid489601@id-489601.lymington.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:07 -!- FelixWeis [sid154231@id-154231.hampstead.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:07 -!- amiti [sid373138@id-373138.lymington.irccloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:07 -!- bw [sid2730@user/betawaffle] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:08 -!- bw [sid2730@user/betawaffle] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:08 -!- amiti [sid373138@id-373138.lymington.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:08 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
08:19 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:20 < sipa> roconnor, andytoshi: BRJK5E2AR7SF has distance 9 up to length 64
08:22 < roconnor> close.
08:28 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:30 < andytoshi> that's good enough for 128 bits right?
08:31 < sipa> 260 data bits
08:35 < sipa> but this didn't take that much CPU (a few days with 14 cores)... could redo a computation of similar magnitude with biased generators
08:37 < roconnor> 260 data bits leaves no room for headers.
08:37 < sipa> yeah you wanted 69, right
08:38 < roconnor> yes.
08:38 < sipa> 285 data bits
08:38 < sipa> that may take a significantly longer search
08:38 < roconnor> more or less.  Technically I want 281 data bits.
08:39 < roconnor> but yes, this would be good enough for 128 bits.
08:40 < roconnor> probably a lot of things would be good enough for 128 bits though.
08:40 < roconnor> we don't have to go grinding.
08:57 < andytoshi> roconnor: i mean "this took a few days with 14 cores" suggests that we do, in fact, have to go grinding :)
08:58 < andytoshi> sipa: if you want i can give you access to my 64-core machine for a bit .. or i doubt it'd be hard to ask gmax for some cores :P
08:58 < sipa> yeah, already asking
08:59 < roconnor> sipa is trying to get me my length 69.  If I had asked for length 31, he'd probably come back in a few minutes.
08:59 < sipa> i mean, that's trivial :p
08:59 < andytoshi> roconnor: oh, never mind, 128 bits is actually way less length than what sipa did
08:59 < andytoshi> yeah :P i see
08:59 < sipa> for length 31 you can use an RS code
08:59 < andytoshi> oh lol
09:00 < roconnor> sorry these 69 and 31 are the data portions, not lengths.
09:00 < sipa> for data length 31 perhaps you also don't care about correct 4 errors
09:00 < roconnor> er I mean I've mixed them up
09:01 < roconnor> 69 was length and I guess the 31 should be 43 or so.
09:01 < roconnor> anyhow.
09:01 < sipa> right
09:01 < andytoshi> while we are talking about mixups, what is the correct terminology for the extra non-data characters you have to add .. and the correct terminology for the thing you compute in the checksum worksheet ("the m value")
09:01 < andytoshi> i have been saying "checksum" for both
09:02 < roconnor> sipa was calling it the spec in the python code IIRC.
09:05 < sipa> i've been calling it the "degree" in my code, but i don't think that's the proper term
09:05 < sipa> because it's the degree of the generator polynomial
09:06 < roconnor> the m value might be the residue?
09:07 < roconnor> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/241605/crc-preset-and-residue
09:07 < roconnor> the preset is kinda a function of the HRP.
09:08 < sipa> i think the residue is the _expected_ checksum value
09:08 < sipa> eh, no
09:08 < sipa> the residue is the _expected_ remainder of the polynomial division of codewords by the generator polynomial
09:09 < sipa> (based on that answer, i'm not familiar with the term)
09:10 < roconnor> which is what the "m" value in bech32m is.
09:10 < sipa> right
09:10 < sipa> but it isn't "the thing you compute in the checksum worksheet"
09:11 < sipa> mathematical descriptions of BCH codes use 0 as residue
09:11 < sipa> because otherwise it isn't a cyclic code
09:12 < roconnor> sure, but the checksum worksheet is both used to compute the checksum and alternatively to compute the residue.
09:13 < sipa> you can't compute the residue... it's a constant that's part of the scheme definition
09:13 < roconnor> oh you are suggesting that the residue is a fuction of the scheme rather than a function of the string.
09:14 < sipa> yeah; again according to the stackoverflow answer
09:14 < roconnor> I'd say that a residue is the function of a string, and a string is a valid codeword when its residue is meets the um specified residue.
09:14 < roconnor> which I think is inline with this comment https://stackoverflow.com/questions/241605/crc-preset-and-residue#comment94531433_241874
09:15 < sipa> that's probably a more useful interpretation :)
09:15 < roconnor> "It is the remainder which is left after running the entire data stream through the algorithm, including the received CRC."
09:15 < sipa> ok
09:15 < roconnor> but I'm just cherry picking answers that I like from SO.
09:16 < roconnor> but that Adrain W really looks like he knows what he is talking about.
09:16 < roconnor> So, why are there preset != 0 and XOR != 0 implementations at all? That's more electrical engineering than informatics or mathematics. preset = 0 will leave the CRC work register at 0 for all leading 0 bits. Thus a missed clock would not be detected in the initial section of a message. Similarly an XOR = 0 will cause CRC = 0 to indicate good blocks and thus a defective CRC engine which always outputs 0 would mark all blocks as good. Therefore 
09:16 < roconnor> electrical engineers like XOR != 0. The value ~0 is widey used, but other values are used to create distinct codes for different data sources. – 
09:16 < roconnor> Adrian W
09:16 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:16 < andytoshi> i think residue is fine, even if it's incorrect from a coding theory POV it's ok from a math one, because we are modding out one polynomial by another and the result is called a "residue" in ring theory
09:17 < sipa> aha, so let's call the "expected residue" the "XOR value" as in that comment
09:17 < sipa> and call the residue the polynomial remainder of (codeword) mod (generator)
09:17 < andytoshi> sounds good to me
09:17 < roconnor> or maybe "specified residue" which explains your use of "spec" in python.
09:19 < sipa> if we call it xor values, we'll get angry emails from people accusing us of discrimination against non-characteristic-2 fields
09:20 < andytoshi> lol, you don't want to piss off *that* mob
09:23 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:37 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
09:48 -!- jonatack [jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:48 -!- andrewtoth_ [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:51 -!- andrewtoth [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:53 -!- _split [~split@user/split] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:53 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o _split] by ChanServ
09:53 -!- split [~split@user/split] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
09:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:59 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:40 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@user/jackielove4u] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:43 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@user/jackielove4u] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:47 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:50 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:00 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
11:14 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:32 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:47 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:02 -!- b10c [uid500648@5.254.36.60] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
12:23 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has left #bitcoin-wizards [Closing Window]
12:44 -!- bfsfhkacjzgcytf [~bfsfhkacj@user/bfsfhkacjzgcytf] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:45 < andytoshi> roconnor: i'm really having trouble coming up with a variant of your "checksum a giant string of share indices but encode it in a compact way" scheme that i'm happy with
12:46 < andytoshi> one observation is that i don't think we can hack the linear code to make this fully invisible (i commented on the github issue to this effect)
12:46 < andytoshi> so i think we'd need to have an explicit "this prefix is encoded as these chars" mapping which didn't really have any algebraic structure to it
12:48 < andytoshi> and then i think, in the checksum worksheet, users would have to do the full expansion ... either that, or we would need to provide some sort of giant lookup table of all the share indices at every depth
12:51 < andytoshi> ah, ok, so your "One variation is..." on https://github.com/roconnor-blockstream/SSS32/issues/16 has the user doing the decompression in an algorithmic way rather than using a giant lookup table
12:51 < andytoshi> ahh .. and critically, you don't need to do the decompression when doing SSS
12:52 < andytoshi> ok, i'm warming up to this
12:52 < roconnor> at the moment our hand computation is largely focused on 2-of-n, and we could have a worksheet for 2-of-n subshares.
12:53 < roconnor> which only would shift a single S.
12:53 < roconnor> this is all that is needed for your "transport" problem.
12:53 < roconnor> where you have a 2-of-2 subshare.
12:55 < roconnor> BTW, there is a small effect on the main SSS scheme.  It means we really want to reduce the number of supported data by 8 characters so that the checksum covers this implicit string of S's.
12:55 < roconnor> so that if the user needs them, the checksum will cover them.
12:56 < roconnor> This isn't a big deal beyond modifying how we deal with "long" data that needs to be split up into chunks.
12:57 < roconnor> I'm trying to think of a clever way of only needing a single implicit S.  The long string of 8S's is only need because we want a way of encoding the threshold amount, which is fairly important to know.
12:59 < andytoshi> we need the threshold amount *and* the share index, at each level right?
13:03 < sipa> so with a non-zero expected residue in the checksums, does checksumming still commute with SSS'ing?
13:04 < andytoshi> sipa: yes! it took roconnor a few tries to explain to me why this works out
13:05 < andytoshi> but the reason is that lagrange interpolation is an affine combination, in the sense that all the basis polynomials sum to 1
13:05 < andytoshi> so when you combine shares, you wind up multiplying the residue by a bunch of things which all sum to 1
13:05 < sipa> oh
13:05 < sipa> of course
13:12 < roconnor> "of course"
13:17 < roconnor> the checksum is also compatible with, putting the share index into the data portion, and putting any constant header in every share, e.g. the share theshold and an id.
13:42 -!- smartin [~Icedove@88.135.18.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
14:07 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:22 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:27 -!- greypw254 [~greypw2@grey.pw] has quit [Quit: I'll be back!]
14:28 -!- greypw254 [~greypw2@grey.pw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:33 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:33 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:34 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
16:07 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:59 -!- CrashTestDummy [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:04 -!- rottenstonks [~rottensto@user/rottenstonks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:18 -!- CrashTestDummy [~CrashTest@ool-ad02813b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:07 -!- jamesecombs [~james@47.203.171.152] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:09 -!- bfsfhkacjzgcytf [~bfsfhkacj@user/bfsfhkacjzgcytf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:28 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:30 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:40 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@coq/roconnor] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:48 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:33 -!- jamesecombs [~james@47.203.171.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:03 -!- Cory [~Cory@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:07 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:08 -!- jtrag [~jtrag@user/jtrag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:09 -!- grubman9000 [~ufotofu@user/ufotofu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:02 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:36 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@190.53.113.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:47 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Wed Nov 24 00:00:41 2021