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09:32 < roconnor> I have a rough draft for a BIP at https://github.com/roconnor-blockstream/SSS32/blob/ms32/MasterSeed32.md
09:33 < roconnor> I want to reword some bits.  And I'm not actually familiar with python, so if anyone wants to help me out there, that would be good.
09:35 < sipa> don't forget that BIPs are writtencin mediawiki format
09:36 < roconnor> hmm, will github render mediawiki?
09:36 < sipa> yes
09:37 < roconnor> okay I can translate the formatting eventually.
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10:01 < andytoshi> one minor nit is that we should avoid using the word "master" in new projects. nontrivial chance we'll wind up embroiled in a stupid fight about it, sometime in the next decade, and it's easily avoidable now
10:01 < andytoshi> though i get that it comes from "master seed" as defined in bip32, which isn't going to change
10:12 < andytoshi> i think even just renaming to "MS32" should be sufficient to avoid that sort of controversy
10:13 < andytoshi> anyway i will PR with that, and some other minor nits
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10:15 < roconnor> that's fine.
10:17 < roconnor> oh I guess we want to change the generator.
10:20 < andytoshi> yeah. though we can do that later ... i'm not sure if sipa is still grinding away
10:21 < sipa> i am
10:21 < andytoshi> or if we should just use the V53S0VVV95U22 one that i liked
10:21 < andytoshi> ok awesome, thanks
10:21 < roconnor> ya we should use one of the tripple ones, until/unless sipa discovers something amazing.
10:22 < roconnor> Though it is hard to choose a particular triple one over another, something to think about.
10:22 < roconnor> but we can go with V53S0VVV95U22 for now.
10:23 < sipa> so there are arguably 3 properties: (1) degree 12 or 13 (2) algebraically decodable or not (3) some metric of generator niceness
10:24 < sipa> if (1)=13 (2)=false is acceptable, (3) can probably be improved a lot, easily
10:25 < roconnor> I feel like algebraic decodability is more important than niceness.
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10:25 < sipa> but degree 12 is more important that either of the other two?
10:26 < roconnor> I think maybe.  I don't know.  I'm kinda hoping your search fails so I don't have to make that call.
10:26 < roconnor> being short is really really nice.
10:27 < sipa> i'm not hopeful i can find a degree 12 with the current amount of computation i can throw at it
10:27 < andytoshi> i think algebraic decodability might be necessary for such a high-distance code ... like, 4 errors is a lot to brute-force through
10:27 < roconnor> but if error correction is intractable, then maybe it isn't worth it.
10:27 < sipa> andytoshi: meet-in-the-middle, though
10:27 < sipa> square root brute forcing
10:27 < andytoshi> oh ok, that's probably fine then
10:28 < roconnor> I'd like to know what the performace for error correction will be.
10:28 < sipa> (e.g. you have precomputed tables of the residues of any combination of 2 errors, iterate over all possibilities of 2 errors you can make, compute their residue, and look it up in the table)
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10:28 < roconnor> days is possibly fine, but decades is probably not fine.
10:29 < sipa> i was thinking seconds was already bad
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10:29 < sipa> if seconds is ok, 4 errors is not a problem :p
10:29 < sipa> maybe minutes if you do it in python
10:29 < sipa> using algebraic tricks, e.g. only storing monic forms of each polynomial, you can make more memory/cpu tradeofss
10:29 < roconnor> okay. I don't really have a handle on this as you can see.
10:31 < roconnor> sipa: what about filling in easures?
10:32 < sipa> good question
10:32 < roconnor> 2^5^8 work?
10:32 < roconnor> that doesn't sound so bad.
10:33 < roconnor> and I think consecutive erasures is just easy.
10:33 < sipa> right, that works
10:33 < roconnor> I'm kinda expecting consecutive erasurse to be the most common type of error.
10:34 < roconnor> hopefully less than 13 or 12 of them.
10:34 < sipa> that can be done algebraically for any cyclic code, even non-BCH ones
10:34 < roconnor> yep.
10:34 < roconnor> Like, it feels like what a bad coffee mug stain looks like.
10:35 < sipa> ?
10:35 < sipa> oh, i see, that wasn't meant figuratively
10:41 < roconnor> V53S0VVV95U22 is in base32 right, not bech32.
10:41 < sipa> yes
10:42 < sipa> this code predates the selection of the bech32 alphabet
10:47 < roconnor> andytoshi: I don't follow your recent comment.
10:47 < roconnor> (on github)
10:50 < roconnor> andytoshi: ...SSSS is the index for the raw subsecret value (ie a top level share).
10:51 < roconnor> It then needs to be divided if you want to make sub-secret-shares.
10:52 < roconnor> By selecting a random value with an SSSSA.... prefix (keeping the header non-radomized).
10:52 < roconnor> and then deriving a SSSSC.... share from the random share and the raw subsecret.
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11:31 < andytoshi> roconnor: ah ok, i think i get it
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11:32 < andytoshi> i think i need to work through it to be sure. as always, there are miraculous-seeming compatibilities between the error correcting code, SSS, and our shenanigans
11:32 < roconnor> To be fair, I haven't written it down yet, so maybe there are problems.
11:33 < roconnor> I've been dancing around a couple of design options, and I think some don't really work.
11:38 < roconnor> andytoshi: the main miracle we are relying on for the subshares, is that BCH codes are not robust against adversarial tampering, only accidental tampering.
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11:41 < andytoshi> well, also that it happens there is a very user-intuitive way to be an adversary :)
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17:23 < roconnor>  /polymodulus [12 20 17 16 15 12 12 12 5 20 28 10 10] def % coefficents from c12 to c0
17:23 < roconnor> andytoshi: another possible reason for your coincidences is that your polymodulus is incorrect.
17:24 < roconnor> You've interpteded V53S0VVV95U22 as a bech32 string instead of a base32 string.
17:24 < roconnor> [31,5,3,28,0,31,31,31,9,5,30,2,2] should be the polymodulus
17:30 < jeremyrubin> does anyone have any early citations for some sort of OP_AMOUNT opcode for bitcoin?
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18:32 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/vault/bip-0ZZZ.mediawiki
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19:08 < jeremyrubin> interesting thought: because taproot is schnorr over mast, OP_CAT doesn't add generalized covenants in taproot (but it would in Segwit V0) because you also need an OP_TWEAK
19:09 < jeremyrubin> mentioned by roconnor here https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org/msg10225.html
19:10 < jeremyrubin> interesting note because it points to there being some value in introducing a bare mast type for working with covenants to avoid having to add the extra cost of op_tweak if not needed
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 25 00:00:42 2021