--- Log opened Mon Nov 29 00:00:46 2021
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02:18 < meshcollider> roconnor: upper or lowercase Greek letters? A lot of them are very similar to english letters, esp. in uppercase
02:20 < meshcollider> Russian/cyrillic has some good ones too if you need a few more
02:21 < meshcollider> Ж, Ю, Ч, Я, Щ
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06:17 < andytoshi> my gf was also suggesting cyrillic
06:18 < roconnor> I mean, I like the idea, but it isn't part of the portable postscript fonts.
06:18 < andytoshi> one important thing is that symbols not be rotations or flips of each other, since on the wheel users may be reading them upside down
06:18 < andytoshi> yeah, i figured
06:19 < andytoshi> i think we could add one of the two-headed arrows, and a filled dot (assuming there is one)
06:19 < andytoshi> an unfilled dot would look too much like omicron
06:20 < andytoshi> there are also some greek letters (specifically xi) that i cannot write correctly to save my life
06:22 < andytoshi> lemme try to come up with an alphabet .. i like times and aleph (i also can't really write aleph but conveniently, you basically never have to)
06:22 < roconnor> I really don't like arrows and stuff as symbols.
06:22 < andytoshi> so that's 30 more symbols. which i think i can come up with from the lowercase and uppercase greek alphabet
06:22 < andytoshi> ok. no arrows then
06:22 < roconnor> I'm only using times for 0 because it is an error to end up with 0.
06:25 < andytoshi> right
06:26 < andytoshi> ok, so using the greek characters that i like (not iota, not omicron, not xi) and including the capitals that i like (not ones that look like lowercase ones or like roman characters) i can get 23 chars...i need 7 more
06:30 < roconnor> you cannot mix cases of greek letters.  You were just complaining about letters that were named the same.
06:34 < andytoshi> yeah, ok, that's fair
06:36 < andytoshi> ok, so then i can get 18 chars (including capital xi but not lowercase xi) just from the greek alphabet
06:36 < andytoshi> how do you feel about \forall and \exists .. on the one hand they are rotations of roman characters
06:37 < andytoshi> but on the other hand, they are clearly oriented in a way that makes them look funny, and A and E don't actually appear elsewhere in the alphabet
06:37 < roconnor> not great
06:37 < andytoshi> kk
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06:54 < andytoshi> ok, so the 18 letters i have (alpha beta epsilon phi eta mu nu pi theta tau psi Delta Gamma Lambda Sigma Omega Xi rho), plus eight more symbols (euro infinity diamond heart dot sqrt "therefore" turnstile) plus ~ # % $
06:54 < andytoshi> "therefore" is the three dots in a triangle symbol
06:54 < andytoshi> and the turnstile is like an upside down T, so iffy
06:57 < andytoshi> i'm open to any substitutions ... and we could put omicron back in since there is no other circle-looking symbol now
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07:05 < andytoshi> i'd be ok with the equivalence sign (3 horizontal lines) or approxeq (two wavy lines), or leq or plusminus
07:13 < andytoshi> ok, i should start my workweek now. but here is my proposal: abef hmnp qrty DGLS WX %^#? \134\136\240\245 \250\251\267\326
07:14 < sipa> are you feeling alright?
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07:18 < andytoshi> hehehe
07:18 < andytoshi> in the postscript Symbol font those all render as different symbols
08:16 < roconnor> My experiment to combine Symbol characters and Helvetica characters into one font is successful.
08:20 < andytoshi> oh awesome. so that gives us @ and &, at least
08:20 < andytoshi> roconnor: btw, re your earlier question "should we add a handle to the multiplication wheel" yeah i think we should try this, it's a bit weird to use with no handle
08:20 < roconnor> I was thinking double dagger and section.
08:21 < andytoshi> oh! both double-dagger and section sound good to me
08:21 < andytoshi> i guess i should take a look at what all is available in helvetica
08:21 < andytoshi> actually, i'd rather have paragraph than section ... if section is what i think it is i think it might be hard to draw by hand
08:22 < roconnor> & is already in symbol.
08:22 < andytoshi> ah yep - as is # i believe
08:23 < roconnor> yes
08:23 < andytoshi> so maybe @ is the only symbol which is visible on my keyboard that Helvitica gets us
08:25 < andytoshi> ah, with Helvitica we get cent (242) pound (243) and yen (245)
08:25 < andytoshi> i like both cent and yen, they're very distinct and easy to draw and name
08:27 < andytoshi> so .. i'd change my above proposal to replace sqrt with cent, and % with yen
08:28 < andytoshi> and something else with paragraph. maybe the three-dot "therefore" symbol
08:32 < andytoshi> roconnor: btw we have a meeting right now
08:58 < roconnor> andytoshi: I've pushed a font brach that illustrates building a custom font.  I haven't yet incorporated your character suggestions.
08:59 < andytoshi> thanks!
08:59 < andytoshi> idea for appendix: set of "recovery wheel" volvelles for constructing shares other than S from arbitrary sets of k shares
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09:02 < roconnor> we can maybe recover other shares by doing a coordinate transformation on all the shares and recover at "S" and trasform back.
09:08 < andytoshi> hmmm interesting thought .. then we'd just need a 1D table of transformations rather than a whole nother volvelle per share
09:08 < andytoshi> will see if the algebra works next time i have a 5 minute gap between meetings
09:40 < andytoshi> another observation .. if you transform the expected residue and the precomputed values in the checksum worksheet, you can verify the "checksum" of translated shares. i don't really think this is useful since a checksum verification takes like 5x the time of just redoing the translation
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09:47 < roconnor> So I think we can make this work.  The recover share disk compute (S - x) / (y - x), and we want to divide that by (S - x)/(N - x) where N is the share index we want to recover.
09:47 < roconnor> (S - x)/(N - x) can be computed by the same recover share disk
09:47 < roconnor> and the multiplication wheel can also do division.
09:48 < roconnor> so there should be some set of instruction to covert the scalars for recovering S into recovering some other N.
10:21 < andytoshi> nice, i like it.
10:21 < andytoshi> although i am tempted to resurrect "appendices" now because this feels like something that actually is an appendix to the main doc
10:24 < roconnor> I think it is an new modules.  The traditional way is to recover the secret share and then create more shares using it.
10:25 < andytoshi> yeah, makes sense, it can be a new module
10:25 < andytoshi> it feels almost "too trivial"
10:25 < roconnor> oh because it is like one page.
10:25 < roconnor> I'll think about it.
10:26 < roconnor> I've pushed a new symbol character set to the font branch
10:26 < roconnor> I've incorporated some but not all of your ideas.
10:27 < roconnor> I'm not entirely happy yet, but it is a big improvement.
10:32 < andytoshi> i can't open your branch, evince says "undefined" and gs says Error: /undefined in --get--
10:33 < andytoshi> and i don't know how to make either one give me a line number or anything
10:33 < roconnor> oh dear
10:46 < andytoshi> if it doesn't happen on your end i can look into it
10:47 < roconnor> It works with okular and probably gs
10:48 < roconnor> I'm a bit worried that somehow your font is missing one of these characters.
10:48 < roconnor> somehow
10:50 < andytoshi> ok, i get the same error from okular (these are all calling into ghostscript)
10:51 < andytoshi> i can try selectively commenting out lines in a bit
10:52 < roconnor> It's not so easy
10:55 < roconnor> maybe try replacing symbolchars with [ 25 {/alpha} repeat ]
10:55 < roconnor> and replace latinchars with [ 8 {/percent} repeat ]
10:57 < roconnor> we can also try to investigate our font differences in gs
10:58 < roconnor> GS>/Helvetica findfont {pop == } forall
10:58 < roconnor> Loading NimbusSans-Regular font from %romesource/Font/NimbusSans-Regular... 4187824 2731555 2752200 1460058 1 done.
10:58 < roconnor> dang
11:02 < roconnor> okay maybe this font tinkering is a bad idea.
11:02 < roconnor> With some work we can define codes that switch between fonts to get characters from multiple fonts without font tinkering.
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11:19 < andytoshi> roconnor: ok i think it's /euro that's to blame
11:19 < andytoshi> if i replace that with /pi then it works
11:19 < andytoshi> but pretty alarming that the entire document won't load because of this
11:23 < andytoshi> sigh, in my font dump it is Euro with a capital e
11:23 < andytoshi> so replacing /euro with /Euro works
11:24 < roconnor> hmm
11:25 < roconnor> oh it seems to be called /Euro for me too
11:25 < andytoshi> technical issues aside, i'm much much happier with this symbol set than the old one. lol at grouping cent and percent
11:25 < andytoshi> i continue to dislike /section but that's the only one i think i might have trouble drawing by hand
11:25 < roconnor> I thik /section is easier to write than /ampersand
11:26 < roconnor> it's just two ss.
11:26 < andytoshi> hmm yeah that's true
11:26 < andytoshi> i guess i just have a lot of practice drawing ampersands because they were in my grade 1 handwriting book for some reason
11:26 < roconnor> okay I think the euro thing is an error on my part that just happens to work.
11:26 < andytoshi> ok nice. surprising that things worked on your end but not mine
11:27 < andytoshi> i'd *guess* that i have a newer version of ghostscript than you, and i'd assume that later versions would be more permissive than older ones
11:29 < roconnor> make me a little bit nervous about this font manipulation stuff.
11:29 < andytoshi> actually, i'd have guessed that none of this would've changed in the last 25 years..
11:29 < roconnor> This only works if Symbol and Helvetica are type 1 fonts.
11:29 < roconnor> an the OS decides what fonts these are.
11:30 < andytoshi> do you think that, if the OS chose a different font, that the symbol names would differ?
11:30 < andytoshi> if that were true i'd have expected to have encountered broken postscript documents before
11:30 < andytoshi> and i don't think i ever have
11:30 < roconnor> no, but I think it could possibly choose some type 2 font.
11:31 < andytoshi> ok .. so, an alternate strategy would be to just put the symbol drawing in a function which calls setfont
11:31 < roconnor> more or less
11:32 < roconnor> It would make sense if the "code" was not a string, but an array of procedures that draw a glyph.
11:32 < andytoshi> i am tempted to keep what you've done here, and wait to see if bug reports appear
11:32 < roconnor> Okay.  I'll think about it.
11:32 < andytoshi> or to replace the symbols with indexes into the font (ugh)
11:32 < andytoshi> i mean, replace the symbolic names
11:33 < roconnor> I don't think the symbolic names are going to be a problem.  I'm not sure why /euro worked on my system.
11:33 < roconnor> but it was wrong of me.
11:33 < andytoshi> yeah that's my personal belief
11:33 < roconnor> Everything calls it /Euro, even though it is /dollar /yen /sterling.
11:34 < andytoshi> that we just hit a fluke where your system accepted something objectively wrong, and now we're spooked about incompatibility without reason
11:34 < roconnor> but if a type 2 font is loaded then the whole /CharStrings thing goes out the window.
11:34 < andytoshi> my feeling also is that no OS anywhere will replace helvetica or symbol
11:35 < roconnor> I'm pretty sure that Nimbus is not Helvetica.
11:36 < roconnor> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimbus_Sans
11:36 < andytoshi> well, it was designed specifically to act like helvetica
11:37 < andytoshi> ah, ok, it was designed to match helvetica spacing, and to replace helvetica in ghostscript
11:37 < andytoshi> also why the hell is helvetica non-free, it's 65 years old
11:37 < roconnor> Right, and probably should be a type 1 font for compatabilty.
11:37 < roconnor> can I have assertions in postscript?
11:38 < roconnor> I can make it print "please email andytoshi" when /Helvetica findfont isn't a type 1 font.
11:40 < andytoshi> hehe
11:40 < andytoshi> AFAIK there is no way to "catch" ghostscript errors and display something helpful to the user :(
11:41 < andytoshi> but you probably could do that with ifelse, if you knew exactly what to check for
11:43 < roconnor> So my biggest problem with this symbol set is that @ is just too fat.
11:43 < andytoshi> yeah i agree, it does stick out
11:45 < andytoshi> my vote is to replace it with turnstile
11:56 < jeremyrubin> if anyone wants i'll be sending out some fun sapio 'holiday card nfts' on bitcoin at some point, put in an address if that sounds cool to you https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeStXY-cU-x7N56f6A28ItK2RRcD5PNDd4EVZ82q9Jp4nzgjw/viewform
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12:06 < roconnor> how about circle plus maybe.
12:13 < andytoshi> ack circle-plus
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14:21 < roconnor> finally figured out bind.  It only binds operators and not procedures.
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14:23 < roconnor> So, for example, if you are say, ... directly loading the CharStrings dictionary of the Symbol font into the dictionary stack, and you can no longer use "forall" since it is bound to the glyph instead of the oparator.
14:23 < roconnor> you can use bind on a procedure and still have it call the real "forall" operator.
14:26 < andytoshi> ah ok
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14:36 < roconnor> oh interesting. I tried a new technique to layer the glyph fetching.
14:36 < roconnor> and, it turns out that if Helvetica has these symbols, and it usually does, it will prefer to use the ones from Helvetica.
14:36 < roconnor> which makes most of the symols sans serif.
14:37 < roconnor> except for Omega.
14:38 < roconnor> and circleplus but circleplus doesn't have serifs to begin with.
14:39 < roconnor> Also Lambda looks like an upsidedown nu.
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14:44 < roconnor> I kinda like the simple strokes of the Helvetica font.  But we would have to get rid of nu and tau.
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15:30 < andytoshi> there's always turnstile and three-dots :P
15:42 < roconnor> so I used sterling and dagger.
15:42 < roconnor> I'm not quite sure how to justify dagger over turnstile but I'm going to try.
15:43 < roconnor> I dont' actually know how to write sterling with a pen, but it can't be any harder than an ampersand.
15:44 < roconnor> anyhow, I've hacked together something that should use Helvetica for all the symbols and fall back to Symbol when it cannot.
15:45 < andytoshi> cool, looks great!
15:45 < andytoshi> i kinda wish we had the other form of phi to distinguish more from psi
15:45 < andytoshi> and aleph is now definitely the odd man out
15:46 < andytoshi> we could replace aleph with | ... like a 0-dagger 
15:46 < andytoshi> probably unwise, a single line is not a good glyph
15:48 < andytoshi> oh, my gf points out that # and the GBP symbol can both be pronounced "pound"
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15:49 < andytoshi> the GBP symbol also might be hard to draw. i would prefer the hebrew bet, which is similarly shaped (but i think we don't have it in our fonts sadly)
15:50 < andytoshi> maybe we could replace GBP with $ ... then $ and cent can go together, and yen and euro can go together
15:57 < roconnor> ya we can just use phi1
15:58 < roconnor> what why does helvetica have them backwards?
15:59 < roconnor> that's really irritating.
15:59 < roconnor> I'm avoiding $ because we are supposed to have instruction to write S and $ when doing computations so you don't get confused with 5.
15:59 < roconnor> yeah, the # and sterling thing worried me too.
16:00 < roconnor> I'm okay with aleph.  it represents an unusual value.
16:01 < roconnor> e.g. it doesn't occur inside the recover shares disc.
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16:09 < andytoshi> ok, agreed on all counts
16:09 < andytoshi> maybe there's a different replacment for sterling though
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16:14 < roconnor> I guess we should pick one.
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17:00 < andytoshi> roconnor: how about ?
17:00 < andytoshi> that is, question mark
17:02 < andytoshi> or infinity
17:07 < andytoshi> i think question mark works better, the infinity symbol is a weird size
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17:45 < roconnor> question mark is for unknown characters when decoding
17:45 < roconnor> infinity is a sideways 8
17:50 < roconnor> I'm getting more and more tempted by ¤
18:06 < meshcollider> Is there just a normal square 
18:06 < meshcollider> \qed 
18:13 < roconnor> not in the basic postscript fonts.
18:13 < roconnor> I mean, we could draw one.  Though then I'd need to make a type 3 font
18:15 < roconnor> ¤ is called "scarab"
18:15 < roconnor> we can add that to the tips and tricks section.
18:16 < jeremyrubin> i'm afraid to ask waht anyof this has to do with bitcoin
18:17 < roconnor> notation for hand computation of SSS.
18:18 < roconnor> we have the bech32 character set, but, it is useful to have another distinct 32 character set during some steps of SSS computation to help avoid making mistakes.
18:19 < roconnor> perferably using characters that are available in every standard distribution of postscript.
18:20 < jeremyrubin> oh lol. i've also had some luck with printing out scrambled bip39 random self maps and encrypting an offline key using those... this sounds like a better scheme tho
18:20 < roconnor> If you are interested you can take a look at https://github.com/roconnor-blockstream/SSS32/blob/ms32/MasterSeed32.md
18:21 < roconnor> And then https://github.com/roconnor-blockstream/SSS32/blob/ms32/SSS32.ps
18:21 < roconnor> Things are still being shaken out, but they are getting there.
18:22 < roconnor> Like we are now arguing over whether to use ¤ or £, so we are getting there.
18:23 < roconnor> and this only applies to the hand computation algorithm, and not the proposed SSS scheme itself.
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19:16 < andytoshi> roconnor: scarab sounds good to me tbh
19:17 < roconnor> andytoshi: I've switched from helvetica to courier.
19:17 < roconnor> we can have our @ back
19:17 < roconnor> maybe tau too.
19:18 < andytoshi> roconnor: wow! this looks a million times better
19:19 < roconnor> yep.
19:19 < roconnor> I don't know how to test the fall-back capabilities, but whatever.
19:20 < andytoshi> i expect everyone will have courier :)
19:20 < roconnor> I think I prefer @ over &.
19:20 < roconnor> sure, but the courier with symbols?
19:20 < andytoshi> agreed re @ over &
19:20 < roconnor> I mean, today, probably.
19:20 < roconnor> but on a computer from 1992?
19:21 < andytoshi> hard to say about 1992. ghostscript didn't exist so if you were doing ps you had paid for Adobe stuff
19:21 < andytoshi> i think
19:21 < roconnor> my point is that it is designed to fall back on the Symbol font.
19:21 < roconnor> and still work.
19:21 < roconnor> I just can't test it.
19:22 < andytoshi> ah! yeah, i see
19:22 < andytoshi> i think that's ok
19:22 < roconnor> at least not properly.
19:22 < andytoshi> yeah it's fine. at the very least, it's a very low priority
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19:24 < roconnor> replacing diamond with lozenge seems better too.
19:24 < roconnor> maybe ...
19:25 < andytoshi> it helps to distinguish from heart .. but hurts distinguishing from Delta
19:25 < andytoshi> my feeling is that the solid diamond is better
19:25 < roconnor> okay
19:26 < roconnor> We cannot have tau and dagger together, so I think tau stays out.
19:26 < roconnor> My % sign is pretty ugly, but I can live with it.
19:27 < andytoshi> agreed about dagger beating tau
19:27 < andytoshi> and yeah, between % and & it's a tossup. i think i prefer %
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19:28 < roconnor> if we repace phi with Phi all our varphi problems go away.
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19:32 < roconnor> hopefully Phi isn't too much like a sideways theta.
19:32 < roconnor> I think they are different enough.
19:37 < andytoshi> yeah i think they've pretty different. the bar in theta doesn't overlap the outside circle
19:37 < andytoshi> and theta is an oval while phi is a circle
19:40 < roconnor> oops I lost my arrows on the top wheel.
19:40 < roconnor> too much search and replace.
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19:48 < andytoshi> lol oh i noticed that, glad it was a search and replace error. i assumed it was some dark font magic
19:52 < roconnor> The E6B flight computer looks pretty cool.
19:53 < roconnor> It suggests that we could consider printing the multiplication wheel on the back of one of the bottom wheels.
19:53 < roconnor> at least if I adjust the sizes appropriately.
19:54 < roconnor> comes at the cost of making improper assembly more likely.
19:54 < andytoshi> lol that's a fun idea. it is probably too hard to get a home printer to get the alignment perfect
19:54 < roconnor> If we only had the two wheels, I'd be more inclined.
19:55 < andytoshi> yeah
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20:23 < roconnor> 🜨 is pronouced "earth".
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 30 00:00:47 2021