--- Log opened Fri Dec 03 00:00:50 2021
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06:08 < andytoshi> sipa: re "wear gloves", i have considered this, but realistically even if an attacker could get complete fingerprints and a reliable view of every computation you looked up, he wouldn't learn the ordering of those computations
06:09 < andytoshi> so i really don't think the pattern of fingerprints, creases, etc., are useful sidechannels. even if you were to underline things on the checksum table (which we should tell users not to do!!) i'm skeptical that this would reveal enough information to be useful
06:10 < andytoshi> roconnor: good idea, i will change the "let's just avoid this risk altogether" sentence to something that more clearly contrasts paper vs electronics
06:10 < sipa> seeing which positions the volvelles have been in does teach an attacker something, no?
06:11 < andytoshi> without revealing the order of those positions, it doesn't reveal much
06:11 < andytoshi> a vivid illustration is ... suppose the attacker learns specifically the 26 characters corresponding to your 128 bit secret, but not the order
06:12 < andytoshi> there are 26! permutations which is 2^88
06:12 < andytoshi> and a more realistic attack scenario has the 26 secret characters mixed up with 100s of intermediate computations, as well as multiple independent shares
06:12 < sipa> if there are repeated characters, there will be fewer permutations than that
06:13 < andytoshi> ok, fair enough
06:13 < sipa> not claiming this is realistic
06:14 < andytoshi> ok. i agree that there is a nonzero information leak here
06:14 < sipa> but then again, if you're willing to go through the effort of using a method like this, your paranoia-level (rightfully so or not) is probably high enough to justify closing this leak too
06:15 < andytoshi> yeah :) i think we should mention that it's advisable and has nonzero value
06:15 < andytoshi> i just don't think we should distract an already-overwhelmed user by suggesting that it's important
07:25 < roconnor> The volelles are never oriented with top-secret data
07:26 < sipa> ah, good
07:26 < roconnor> They are oriented with share data, so to attack this you have to extract the shares and then extract the secret from those shares.
07:28 < roconnor> at least, it can be done without ever orienting with secret data.  We would have to add to the tips and tricks to suggest people use the addition disc with the secret data indexed off the top disc and not oriented on the bottom disc.
07:30 < roconnor> It's a little safer if you are generating a new random secret from random shares.  In that case you generate shares without ever directly knowing the secret, and then you can extract the secret at the end if your wallet doesn't know how to read these shares.
07:30 < roconnor> I was jokinging thinking of wearing gloves to prevent papercuts. ;)
07:31 < roconnor> And by saying "when handled correctly, [paper] cannot leak secret data." I mean that I recongise that if you write your secret and/or shares on paper and just leave them on the sidewalk, ... secrets can be leaked that way.
07:32 < roconnor> Or if you write on a papper pad, you can read the indentations on the lower sheet.
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09:15 < andytoshi> i'm happy to say that i derived a 4-of-n share by hand, with a complete successful checksum worksheet, and was able to locate and correct all my mistakes without computer help. though the whole thing took nearly 2 hours
09:15 < andytoshi> i got smarter and more careful though, i think if i did it again it'd be less than 1
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 04 00:00:51 2021