--- Log opened Fri Jan 14 00:00:29 2022
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05:06 < roconnor> I propose: OP_SIGHASH, with sighash flags enxtended to cover ANYPREVOUT and TEMPLATE cases + OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK + OP_INTERNALKEY.  Gives us congenstion control, eltoo, and oracles.
05:12 < darosior> roconnor: why an OP_SIGHASH instead of a new key type?
05:26 < roconnor> OP_SIGHASH gets what you need for CTV applications, where you EQUALVERIFY the hash value directly.
05:27 < roconnor> then it composes with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK to get you ANYPREVOUT behaviours.
05:27 < roconnor> and CHECKSIGFROMSTACK by itself lets you verify signatures on oracle provided data.
05:33 < darosior> Thanks, i read it too rapidly and assumed it had something to do with the signature's sighash type.
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06:54 < _aj_> roconnor: suggest calling it OP_TXHASH instead. presumably you define <n> TXHASH for n = 0,1,2,3,0x81,0x82,0x83 (and hex 41,42,43,c1,c2,c3 for apo) and any other value of n is treated as op_success. ctv is "n OP_TXHASH h EQUAL". two drawbacks compared to ctv come to mind: txhash isn't op_nop compatible, so you can't do ctv directly in scriptPubKey and avoid needing any witness data when redeeming; 
06:54 < _aj_> also ctv's hashes are different in various ways to APO's/etc which probably warrants some thought. for replacing checksig, i think there's a conflict that you want to be able to specify how the hashing is done at signing time, but that conflicts with being able to update op_txhash in future when new hashing ideas come about. the split between keyversion/sighash that checksig has seems hard to 
06:54 < _aj_> recreate for op_txhash
07:07 < roconnor> _aj_: what's the second drawback?
07:09 < roconnor> I'm inclinded to make other values of n would be a failure.  The SUCCESS updatedablemechanism doesn't quite work as well for dynamic execution as it does for the current OP_SUCCESS pre-execution static properties.
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07:12 < roconnor> I think new hashing ideas will just need OP_TXHASH2.  I admit it kinda a shame, but upgradable hashing mechanisms are a bit dicy.
07:14 < roconnor> (that said, as long as the txhash's cover the flags being used, everything is fairly safe on that end.)
07:22 < _aj_> roconnor: i think i was just thinking of the hashing differences; ctv hashes aren't taggedhash and stuff. <handwave>
07:25 < _aj_> roconnor: ctv does support the "success" upgrade mechanism (safe, since you're harcoding the target hash anyway) so having to introduce a new opcode for each new sighash would be a bit lame by comparison
07:26 < roconnor> yes ctv does, but at the expense of not pushing the hash on the stack.
07:26 < _aj_> roconnor: ?
07:28 < roconnor> I mean, I'd phrase it like CTV supports the "noop" upgrade mechanism.
07:28 < roconnor> which it manages to do because it has noop compatable stack semantics.
07:28 < roconnor> i.e. it doesn't push the hash value onto the stack.
07:31 < roconnor> But that comes at a cost of needed an extra 33 bytes or so when you want emulate OP_TXHASH to do things like CHECKSIGFROMSTACK or rolling that into another hash, or whatever.
07:31 < _aj_> one thing you could maybe do is have the txhash type be "lowest byte is signer choosable, higher bytes are not". bit annoying to express in script, i suppose.
07:33 < _aj_> then you'd have (t >> 8) is the "key version" and (t & 0xff) is the sighash; unknown key version = op_success, known key version unknown sighash = failure
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07:37 < _aj_> i think noop compatibility's good for minimising size in some cases; i think it was also a design goal in that it prevents it from being useful for recursive covenants?
07:45 < _aj_> "[sig][sh] [v][key] CHECKSIG" ~= "[sig] [v][sh] TXHASH [v][key] CHECKSIGFROMSTACK" maybe?
07:45 < roconnor> it cannot be a design goal to prevent recursive covenants because CTV and PUSHTEMPLATE are mutualy emulatable.
07:46 < roconnor> I'm not sure I get this key version thing.
07:46 < roconnor> key versions are just a way of extending the CHECKSIG operation,
07:46 < roconnor> but I'm proposing using a new CHECKSIGFROMSTACK operation in lieu.
07:47 < _aj_> key versions can be used to upgrade from secp256k1 to some different signing system, so could apply to checksigfromstack too
07:48 < roconnor> of course, checksigfromstack can support the same checksig key version upgrade path.
07:48 < roconnor> that is it can succeed when the pubkey isn't 32 bytes.
07:48 < roconnor> I hope that is how it works in elements tapscript.
07:50 < _aj_> looks like it is
07:50 < _aj_> (EvalTapScriptCheckSigFromStack)
07:51 < roconnor> yep good.
07:52 < _aj_> so key versions are also what allows updating checksig/verify to different message hashes; i'm just handwaving a thing that upgrades txhash as well and calling it by the same name
07:52 < roconnor> oh I see what you are saying.
07:53 < _aj_> \o/
07:54 < _aj_> what is PUSHTEMPLATE?
07:54 < roconnor> I mean that sort of thing just doesn't work very well with PUSH semantics.
07:55 < roconnor> upgradability I mean.
07:55 < _aj_> maybe we can invent a way to make it work well?
07:56 < roconnor> there are lots of other upgrade mechanisms, like the mere existence of another OP_SUCCESS code could add new flag support.
07:57 < roconnor> because OP_SUCCESS upgrades can redefine the semantics of all other opcodes.
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08:00 < roconnor> But if we can design a robust OP_TXHASH hopefully there won't be a lot of presure for new upgrades.
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08:16 < jeremyrubin> I don't think it's true they're mutually emulable 
08:17 < jeremyrubin> But I might be wrong about that 
08:18 < jeremyrubin> I don't have too much an issue with op_txhash, that's actually pretty much why I designed ctv to permit a variable length argument for future sighash flags 
08:19 < jeremyrubin> However I think that it's worth waiting on txhash semantics because I worry that we should think more generally about how sighash flags work and instead make them some sort of sighash program. At the same time, I worry that sighash programa are inherently very expensive to validate potentially 
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08:23 < jeremyrubin> the reason I don't think they're emulable is because the verify in ctv precents you from doing negative reasoning, e.g. if not this tx.  Suppose you had a bool version of CTV, ctb. <H> ctb IF ... ELSE ... ENDIF is not replicated by IF <H> CTV ... ELSE ... ENDIF because the else branch doesn't prove the tx is not H
08:23 < roconnor> PUSHTEMPLATE = <witness stack item>DUP CTV POP and CTV = PUSHTEMPLATE EQUALVERIFY
08:24 < roconnor> er I guess I don't need DUP and POP
08:37 < _aj_> ("CTV <H> EQUAL NOT VERIFY" -- provide the hash of the tx on the witness stack, and tx is only valid if it's not H lets you do negative reasoning)
08:40 < roconnor> I suppose we could have TXHASH support both verification and push semantics depending on the argument length.  Doesn't feel that crazy.
08:42 < roconnor> maybe that doesn't buy you very much.
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09:04 < jeremyrubin> _aj_ ah, i guess that works?
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09:26 < jeremyrubin> roconnor: OP_TXHASH + OP_CSFS and why'd we ever have checksig at all ;)
09:49 < roconnor> legacy
09:57 < sipa> also, why have OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY when we have OP_CHECKSIG and OP_VERIFY?
09:57 < roconnor> legacy ;)
09:57 < sipa> or OP_3DUP for that matter
09:57 < roconnor> actually there is a long story about the badness of OP_CHECKSIG
09:58 < roconnor> (as opposed to CHECKSIGVERIFY)
09:59 < sipa> having just VERIFY-like opcodes for actual tx conditions + control structures designed to make using those efficient would certainly be nicer
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 15 00:00:30 2022