--- Log opened Sat Mar 05 00:00:17 2022
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04:30 < jeremyrubin> i probably should have included that, i'm aware (and working on!) that problem in miniscript :)
04:31 < jeremyrubin> roconnor_: but it goes deeper than that since if the annex is to be used for a cost of validation hint things get funky, so you kind of either need to pick things like locktimes and allow it on the stack or validation costs and then not allow it
04:31 < jeremyrubin> So i think that we *cannot* use the annex for validation cost hints since it already winds up on the stack through sigs
04:31 < jeremyrubin> instead, we should make annex2.0 be for cost hints
04:32 < jeremyrubin> (annex for validation cost hints + on the stack = undecidability for satisfiers)
04:34 < jeremyrubin> simple example: and(X, Y) where X and Y both commit to the annex via a signature, but can use different amounts of cost based on the response from one to another. So if X signs first and requires an annex with 10avwu, then Y signs, but requires 11avwu, then X must re-sign and might require 12avwu, etc
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06:10 < roconnor_> Why would things get funky?
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07:16 < jeremyrubin> For the reasons I have after 
07:17 < jeremyrubin> *gave 
07:17 < roconnor_> I just seen an undecidability assertion.  Maybe I don't understand what validation cost hints are.
07:18 < roconnor_> oh for satsifiers, not validators.
07:18 < jeremyrubin> Yes 
07:20 < jeremyrubin> I posted on the ML list. Maybe it's just a matter of "don't write scripts like that"?
07:20 < jeremyrubin> But it seems like it's worth understanding better, and something where my feelings is that the annex for validation cost should be something checkable after running the script 
07:20 < jeremyrubin> As opposed to smth the script can read 
07:21 < roconnor_> It's probably important to sign a (bound on) the costs that you are willing to authorize.
07:22 < jeremyrubin> That doesn't quite fix it 
07:22 < jeremyrubin> Since you want a tight bound 
07:22 < jeremyrubin> Otherwise your txn will be too expensive
07:22 < jeremyrubin> Maybe bound and bisect?
07:23 < roconnor_> I mean you prefer a tight bound, but you don't require it.
07:23 < jeremyrubin> Well it's unfortunate for users 
07:24 < jeremyrubin> But sure. 
07:24 < roconnor_> And users prefer cooperative closes to channels.
07:24 < jeremyrubin> It's equivalent to eg having users include a anchor output per participant in a contract 
07:25 < jeremyrubin> Or a bunch of op returns 
07:25 < jeremyrubin> Since this decreases the # of txns that can go into a block 
07:25 < jeremyrubin> But maybe for a worthy benefit 
07:25 < jeremyrubin> It's also annoying that there's one bound vs bound per signer
07:30 < roconnor_> As long as the cost of a checksig is constant independent of the signature's value, it doesn't seem likely to be a problem.
07:31 < roconnor_> resigning a new weight shouldn't change the weight.
07:38 < jeremyrubin> It is though if the weight can be read on the stack 
07:38 < jeremyrubin> The annex weight 
07:39 < roconnor_> ya, that's along the lines of dont write scripts like that.
07:39 < roconnor_> I mean there are safe things you can do with the weight on the stack, and then there are stupid things you can do.
07:40 < roconnor_> Maybe similar games can be played with the locktime on the stack.
07:40 < jeremyrubin> I don't think so 
07:40 < jeremyrubin> Since the locktime is not able to be put on the stack 
07:40 < jeremyrubin> If it were, then possibly 
07:41 < roconnor_> If we add CAT we can probably get the locktime on the stack.
07:41 < jeremyrubin> Well that's a different question
07:41 < roconnor_> oh, what's the current question?
07:41 < jeremyrubin> With cureent scripts I'm only aware of how you can get a couple locktime values on the stack 
07:42 < jeremyrubin> Which is if the lock time is the max value 
07:42 < jeremyrubin> But even then I think some of the bits are masked so we don't know the exact value it is 
07:43 < jeremyrubin> Lower bound + upper bound would give you exact value. But generally you can't know what the value is exactly except that case 
07:48 < jeremyrubin> In any case, im not really sure if it's a problem or not, but it's worth having thorough analysis of any annex use cases before we do one.
07:48 < jeremyrubin> I like annex for lock times 2.0, but I'm skeptical about adding weight. 
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12:13 < roconnor_> If we add weight to the annex and want to maniuplate it from script we'd probably add a CheckWeightVerify opcode that does an inequality comparision with the weight value, like is done with locktimes.
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 06 00:00:17 2022