--- Log opened Thu Jun 16 00:00:54 2022 00:20 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:35 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:09 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 04:41 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-122.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:14 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@178.249.214.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:23 -!- kexkey_ [~kexkey@178.249.214.23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:26 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@178.249.214.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:33 -!- kexkey_ [~kexkey@178.249.214.23] has quit [Quit: kexkey_] 05:45 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 05:47 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:17 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 06:25 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@178.249.214.23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44 < darosior> ariard: so you mentionned to me twice already that in a package relay world, we could securely use CPFP for fee bumping in contracts with more than 2 participants. How is that related to package relay? How does this void this concern: "in a contract with N participants (and thereby N anchor outputs), any 2 participant can collude to pin the 06:44 < darosior> transaction by exhausting the carve-out rule (the first one gets to the limit, the second output is used to trigger the carve-out and get a 26th child, no other child tx may be attached by the remaining participants to bump the fees)". 06:49 < instagibbs> if you allow 0-value ephemeral outputs then you can reduce it to single shared anchor (if you also stop RBF pinning via replace by feerate or other policy change) 06:50 < instagibbs> and ofc 1 block csv all other outputs 06:52 < _aj_> instagibbs: doesn't need to be 0-value for non-eltoo things; an anyone can spend dustlimit+1sat output works, but either way you need a rule that whatever spends that output can always be rbf'ed? 06:53 < instagibbs> right, you have to pick where the funds come from, I just think it's way cleaner :) 06:54 < _aj_> 0-value-ephemeral is an extra rule is all 06:54 < instagibbs> agreed, not required for today's systems at all 06:54 < instagibbs> and yet, I shill 06:54 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@178.249.214.23] has quit [Quit: kexkey] 06:55 < darosior> instagibbs: I'm not following. How can't i chain 25 transactions to prevent you from RBF'ing it? 06:55 < instagibbs> it matters for eltoo like systems where you cannot easily extract funds from the contract 06:56 < instagibbs> darosior, assuming the anchor is the only thing that can be spent in that tx, the number of descendants is not the pinning factor, just how many bytes need to be RBFd 06:56 < instagibbs> hence the rule#3/policy comment about limiting that damage in other ways 06:56 < darosior> Right 06:57 < darosior> But then it's not solved by package relay, we still need an RBF change ariard? 06:57 < instagibbs> ^ that's my assumption but I'll listen :) 07:00 < _aj_> you don't /need/ the rule#3/policy change though, you just have to be willing to potentially pay enough fees to evict ~100kvB of tx spam? 07:00 < instagibbs> yep, it is a "you CAN rbf... mwahaha" 07:00 < _aj_> that's still better than "you can't rbf" 07:02 < instagibbs> and practically in empty mempools, they're doing it for nothing 07:02 < instagibbs> and costing themselves 07:02 < darosior> Wait, maybe i'm being dumb but instagibbs: the number of descendants is still the pinning factor? I spend the anyonecanspend output with a 24-outputs tx, and attach a tx by output. That's 25 descendants, that can't be RBF'd 07:04 < instagibbs> I cannot attach new transactions, but I can conflict with the anchor output spend 07:04 < _aj_> i thought the problem was that if you have tx A, with two outputs A1 and A2, then if you add 25 descendents to A1, *I* can't add the extra descendent to A2 that gets A mined. There's no problem replacing the 25 descendents on A1, though, it's just that only you can spend A1, so it's not something *I* can do 07:04 < _aj_> but if we only have A1 the fact you have 25 descendents on it is fine; i can replace all of them, provided i can spend A1? 07:05 < instagibbs> +1 07:05 < darosior> Yes, you are right __aj__ i was confused. But then i can do that with 100 txs. Rule #5 pinning 07:05 < instagibbs> shared anchors can even be OP_TRUE, or 0 CSV(to ensure child tx is signaling bip125) 07:05 < instagibbs> darosior, *assuming* everyone is using 25 limits, you can bump ~4 contracts at a time 07:05 < _aj_> if i spend A1, i'm only conflicting with txs that are descendents of A, and there's at most 25 of them, so the 100 limit shouldn't matter 07:06 < instagibbs> rule#5 should probably be directly scaled with these mempool constants, IIRC gloria's package relay proposal may assume fixed 25? 07:06 < instagibbs> 25 chain limits, leaving 100 alone 07:06 < _aj_> darosior: (only 1 underscore on each side, fwiw) 07:16 < instagibbs> ah no, the implicit 25 limits for package relay only apply to the package acceptance logic itself, not mempool overall, right 07:19 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@178.249.214.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:24 -!- _0x0ff is now known as katsu 07:24 -!- katsu is now known as Guest1003 07:25 -!- Guest1003 is now known as _0x0ff 07:27 -!- _0x0ff is now known as katsu_ 07:39 -!- instantp10neer [~instantp1@user/instantp10neer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:55 -!- evbo [~bosats@2601:47:4285:c7f0:ed8f:bf53:e0cf:e665] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:30 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 < ariard> darosior: "But then it's not solved by package relay, we still need an RBF change ariard" package-relay+0 value allows you to solve the pinning attack where your counterparty prevent you to even fee-bump the package by occupying all the descendant slots 09:49 < ariard> the original motivation of carve-out iirc 09:49 < ariard> if you have package-relay, now it doesn't matter anymore as you can propagate the RBF in the package itself and replace your counterparty malicious package 09:50 < ariard> of course, there is still rule#3 pinning, though that's a different one than descendants limits :) 09:53 < ariard> _aj_: note, even if you implement blind fee-bumping where you offer a fee-overbid enough to evict ~100kvB * block_feerate, it might be far beyond your channel value 09:53 < ariard> a cost than an attacker can share between multiple attacked channels, as nothing prevents him rn to target multiple channels 09:54 < ariard> so i believe user-elected descendant limit would at least make *more* secure a lot of low-value channels 10:00 < kanzure> how did this work? https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/crypto98-hal-finney-zero-knowledge-proof-of-preimage/ 10:00 < kanzure> he seems to say his implementation of this only took a few hours 10:22 -!- tromp [~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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